144/18

ok so a bit of back ground here. happend on AUG 2ND, im certain i still had right of way. was struck in intersection, i clearly seen the light turning from yellow to red when i had finished being spun out from the accident. officers showed up on scene within minutes as police station is located a few blocks from where it happened. driver that impacted me was charged with speeding in a school zone at the scene. police took my info, my passengers were examined by paramedics and taken to hospital. officers left me at the scene. luckly my mother in law was a few blocks behind us so i didnt have to walk over to the hospital (no the officers didnt know that she was on scene when they left me there). so get over to hospital and officer speaks with my wife and passenger and then gives me incident report. was never given ticket that day, officer said if he needed to get in contact with me he would as he had all my information. now fast forward to sunday september 11th. im served a summons to court for monday morning (the 12th). so never received a physical ticket and received a summons to court less than 24hrs from the date (also have to note that my name was spelled incorrectly and it states that it happened near the intersection not in it.(there are other inconsistency's that i can go into if needed)) so to the point at hand was wondering if it was in fact legal not receiving a ticket and the fact i received a summons less than 24hrs before court.

Browsing through i found this here. http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic7686.html was wondering if this would apply to me as i was never issued a ticket.

Summons

26. (1) A summons issued under section 22 or 24 shall,

(a) be directed to the defendant;

(b) set out briefly the offence in respect of which the defendant is charged; and

(c) require the defendant to attend court at a time and place stated therein and to attend thereafter as required by the court in order to be dealt with according to law. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.33, s. 26 (1).

Service

(2) A summons shall be served by a provincial offences officer by delivering it personally to the person to whom it is directed or if that person cannot conveniently be found, by leaving it for the person at the persons last known or usual place of abode with an inmate thereof who appears to be at least sixteen years of age. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.33, s. 26 (2).

but that doesn't answer my question if there was a applicable time limit or not. There are plenty of things that seem fishy about how it was handled and im exploring every avenue. Just want to make sure im barking up the right trees so to say.

from some of the things i have been reading (though have not been able to directly view source material for) leads me to believe that there is in fact a time limit to have served me with documents (plz correct me if im wrong, if correct if you happen to know the reference to it that would be appreciated).

Are you reading articles for Provincial Offences court of documents referring to Family Court or Small Claims Court.

We would be looking for people to serve them the night before court. It's not uncommon.

Service of documents sometimes have a time limit as the respondent needs time to review them but this is just a document telling you to be at court. If there was time limit then it would have been the Act which I quoted above.

What exact charge and section were you charged with on the summons?

What happened at your first appearance? Did you go?

So as far them giving you either a regular ticket (Notice of Offence) or a summons ticket, they have 6 months from the date of the incident to serve you with one or the other. I do not believe that there is any time limit on serving you the summons before court date though, so giving it to you the day before is okay from a legal perspective (not that I agree with them doing that though).

Your name being spelled wrong does not really matter.

jsherk wrote:

What exact charge and section were you charged with on the summons?

What happened at your first appearance? Did you go?

So as far them giving you either a regular ticket (Notice of Offence) or a summons ticket, they have 6 months from the date of the incident to serve you with one or the other. I do not believe that there is any time limit on serving you the summons before court date though, so giving it to you the day before is okay from a legal perspective (not that I agree with them doing that though).

Your name being spelled wrong does not really matter.

States I was being summoned for 144 (18). Had paralegal go in to request full disclosure to see what was in it sense I literally found out less than 24hrs from having to be there. Thing I'd like to know is how I could be charged and not even know about it till I received that short notice summons. From what I've been told is that even though officer had 6mths to file it with court, only had 7 days to serve me with the documents from that day to have it legal.

I do not believe what you have been told is correct. They have 6 months to charge you from the date of the incident. If you are given a Notice of Offence (the normal ticket you would get for something like speeding) then the officer has 7 days to file their copy of it (the Certificate of Offence) with the court. If you are given a summons, then they do not have any specific time frame (that I am aware of) to file it with court.

Anyways they can serve you anytime up to 6 months from the incident. The 7 days only applies to officer filing with the court, not giving it to you.

Did you receive the disclosure yet?

Section 144 (18) says:

Red light (18) Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing a circular red indication and facing the indication shall stop his or her vehicle and shall not proceed until a green indication is shown.

You are being charged with running a red light. Can anybody else in the car testify absolutely that it was green when you went thru it?

"Thing I'd like to know is how I could be charged and not even know about it till I received that short notice summons." That what the summons is, it is to inform you of the charge...The summons will contain your information, what the charge is, what act and section number, and when and where you are to appear for court...Ya, that was short notice for sure, but the first appearance is only to set things in motion, you do not need to make a plea at that time so you don't need disclosure before that, often you get disclosure at the first appearance...but your paralegal will look after all of that for you...

jsherk wrote:

I do not believe what you have been told is correct. They have 6 months to charge you from the date of the incident. If you are given a Notice of Offence (the normal ticket you would get for something like speeding) then the officer has 7 days to file their copy of it (the Certificate of Offence) with the court. If you are given a summons, then they do not have any specific time frame (that I am aware of) to file it with court.

Anyways they can serve you anytime up to 6 months from the incident. The 7 days only applies to officer filing with the court, not giving it to you.

Did you receive the disclosure yet?

Section 144 (18) says:

Red light (18) Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing a circular red indication and facing the indication shall stop his or her vehicle and shall not proceed until a green indication is shown.

You are being charged with running a red light. Can anybody else in the car testify absolutely that it was green when you went thru it?

Passenger in back seat can't he was playing a game on his phone. Wife is iffy she got her head rocked pretty hard from the impact. I do know that the guy who hit me was charged with speeding. I distinctly remember confirming that I had to make a turn to the left at next set of lights just after I had looked up at the traffic lights to make sure they were green. I then looked to both sides of intersection checking for pedestrians. After this van hit my explorer it spun us around backwards onto oncoming traffic lane. I distinctly seen the lights turning from yellow to red.

Though as you stated above there if that officer didn't file it within 7 days ? Would that mean it's not valid?

For summons, there is no requirement to file within 7 days. This is for a regular ticket that says Notice of Offence on it, not a summons. And the 7 days to file is from when they give you the ticket not form the date of the incident.

You will have to wait and get all the witness statements to determine if the other driver is saying you went thru the red light and then at trial that driver would have to show up to testify. So wait on disclosure and let us know what it says.

If the guy who hit you was charged with speeding, there must have been an officer there at the scene to measure the speed of that vehicle...if that is so, he is likely a witness to the crash...re reading your post, you say the cops showed up a few minutes later as the station was close by...if that is so, how did they get a speed on the first guy?

screeech wrote:

If the guy who hit you was charged with speeding, there must have been an officer there at the scene to measure the speed of that vehicle...if that is so, he is likely a witness to the crash...re reading your post, you say the cops showed up a few minutes later as the station was close by...if that is so, how did they get a speed on the first guy?

I found out this information via the insurance company. It mentions nothing in the disclosure about him being charged with speeding. Is this a fact I can use in court?

I do not see much benefit in it as it does not help prove which one of you ran the red light.

jsherk wrote:

I do not see much benefit in it as it does not help prove which one of you ran the red light.

i do know there was no officer on scene till a few min after because the station is a few blocks from where the accident happened. i do know that it was determined he was significantly speeding based on the fact that witnesses stated that he hit my vehicle with enough force to put it on two wheels (information relayed to me via the insurance company. i do know that on the direction he was driving was in the tail end of a school zone as well. london is notorious for very short yellows and very short duration to turning green for other direction. i distinctly recall seeing the light changing from yellow to red when i was spun around and came to a stop. which leads me to believe with him speeding that he tried to hop the light (my opinion on that anyways). idk who the witnesses are, but idk how credible there statements are with how long it seems to have taken for the police to gather them and decide to charge me. the guy who hit me was asked for his statement at the scene and i was not, my information was taken however ie:DL and insurance. wasn't told where my passengers were taken and left on the corner. I had to flag down a officer that had been doing traffic control where my passengers were taken and what was going on. thankfully my mother in law was about a 5 min drive from the location and had been able to come grab me. so she took me down to the hospital where my wife and passenger were, investigating officer had asked them for their statements which amounts to little as they had their noses in their phones at the time. investigating officer gave me the incident report at the hospital and after asking twice was told where my vehicle was taken. (whole other can of worms but tow company is crooked and wouldn't give me my possessions from the vehicle (lawyer is dealing with them)). Was informed by officer if he needed me for anything he would be in contact with me as he had all my contact info as well as my phone #. never heard from him after that, i placed 2 calls to him which he never returned and i placed one to his commanding officer as well sense my calls were not returned.

so given the circumstances not hearing anything from them and not receiving a ticket had assumed i had been in the clear till the insurance company spoke with me after i had received that summons. the whole scenario is jinky and makes me wonder how legal everything is.

also correct me if im wrong here in order for them to issue the summons to me the officer would have to have filed a certificate of offence with the court? if thats the case he would have had 7 days from the date of the accident to do so in order for it to be valid. if this is the case i know the summons wasn't filed filed in the court till sept 3rd, i wasn't served with it till the 11th for me to be at court for the 12th. like i stated on page one im exploring all avenues on this, i go back to meet with the paralegal next week so i want to have some things to pursue with him then(mostly want to make sure im not wasting my time looking into certain aspects of this with him).

You will need to plead Not Guilty and request disclosure (officers notes AND all witness statements). Until you get those, we are just speculating and need to know what everybody said before we can determine how he came about giving you the red light ticket.

Now, you keep getting confused about the officer filling times... according to what you have said, the officer has done everything correctly so far.

(1) The officer has 6 months from the date of incident to give you a ticket. It can be either a Notice of Offence or a Summons.

(2) If it's a Notice of Offence, then he must file the Certificate of Offence with the court within 7 days of him giving you the ticket (not 7 days from the date of incident).

(3) If it's a Summons, there is no requirement for him to file anything with the court within any time frame.

You can read about Notice of Offence & Certificate of Offence tickets under PART 1 (sections 3 thru 13) of Ontario Provincial Offences Act.

You can read about Summons tickets under PART 3 (section 21 thru 27) of Ontario Provincial Offences Act.

Link to Ontario POA: https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90p33

jsherk wrote:

You will need to plead Not Guilty and request disclosure (officers notes AND all witness statements). Until you get those, we are just speculating and need to know what everybody said before we can determine how he came about giving you the red light ticket.

Now, you keep getting confused about the officer filling times... according to what you have said, the officer has done everything correctly so far.

(1) The officer has 6 months from the date of incident to give you a ticket. It can be either a Notice of Offence or a Summons.

(2) If it's a Notice of Offence, then he must file the Certificate of Offence with the court within 7 days of him giving you the ticket (not 7 days from the date of incident).

(3) If it's a Summons, there is no requirement for him to file anything with the court within any time frame.

You can read about Notice of Offence & Certificate of Offence tickets under PART 1 (sections 3 thru 13) of Ontario Provincial Offences Act.

You can read about Summons tickets under PART 3 (section 21 thru 27) of Ontario Provincial Offences Act.

Link to Ontario POA: https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90p33

ok so when i spoke with the insurance company they stated to me that it showed i was charged with 144 (18) how does a summons equate to being charged with something when received any ticket? makes me think that there has to be a certificate of offence registered at the court house..... which would mean sense i haven't received a ticket in the mail before the summons (which is sent by registered mail or delivered in person) that its a fatal flaw. just doesn't seem right that i could be charged and never know about it before receiving a short notice court appearance.

likely still flogging a dead horse but, i have not come across any material that says otherwise either way on this

Please read the POA PART 1 and PART 3 before you ask more questions yourself...

Now, I just read thru the POA again, and let me correct a couple things I said:

(1) Under PART 1 (filing a certificate of offence), the officer can give you either a Notice of Offence or a Summons within 30 days of the incident. The officers copy of both of these is called a Certificate of Offence and the officer has 7 days from the date they gave it to you, to file it with the court.

(2) Under PART 3 (laying an information), the officer can give you a Summons. I can not find any mention of time limits, so I am not sure where I got the idea about the 6 months. Can also not find anything about what officer needs to file with court. Will have to look into this futher.

So the first thing you need to figure out, is if the Summons that you were given was under PART 1 or under PART 3. Regulation 108/11 says that a Summons under PART 1 will be on a FORM 7. It says "Form 7" somewhere near the top of it, and somewhere near the bottom it says "served under Part 1 of Provincial Offences Act". The regulation does not say anything about a Summons under PART 3 though, if it is not a Form 7 and does not say anything about Part 1 then we can assume it is a Part 3 summons.

If it is a Part 1 Summons, and it was given to you on Sept 11, which was about 40 days after the incident, then you can ask for the charge to be quashed/dropped per Section 3(3) of POA:

"POA 3. Service (3) The offence notice or summons shall be served personally upon the person charged within thirty days after the alleged offence occurred."

Can you scan and post your summons (with persona/officer info blanked out)?

jsherk wrote:

Please read the POA PART 1 and PART 3 before you ask more questions yourself...

Now, I just read thru the POA again, and let me correct a couple things I said:

(1) Under PART 1 (filing a certificate of offence), the officer can give you either a Notice of Offence or a Summons within 30 days of the incident. The officers copy of both of these is called a Certificate of Offence and the officer has 7 days from the date they gave it to you, to file it with the court.

(2) Under PART 3 (laying an information), the officer can give you a Summons. I can not find any mention of time limits, so I am not sure where I got the idea about the 6 months. Can also not find anything about what officer needs to file with court. Will have to look into this futher.

So the first thing you need to figure out, is if the Summons that you were given was under PART 1 or under PART 3. Regulation 108/11 says that a Summons under PART 1 will be on a FORM 7. It says "Form 7" somewhere near the top of it, and somewhere near the bottom it says "served under Part 1 of Provincial Offences Act". The regulation does not say anything about a Summons under PART 3 though, if it is not a Form 7 and does not say anything about Part 1 then we can assume it is a Part 3 summons.

Can you scan and post your summons (with persona/officer info blanked out)?

Not till next week paralegal has it. Guy is new but can't afford better. Will get copies next week when I see him in person again.

If it is a Part 1 Summons, and it was given to you on Sept 11, which was about 40 days after the incident, then you can ask for the charge to be quashed/dropped per Section 3(3) of POA:

"POA 3. Service (3) The offence notice or summons shall be served personally upon the person charged within thirty days after the alleged offence occurred."

jsherk wrote:

If it is a Part 1 Summons, and it was given to you on Sept 11, which was about 40 days after the incident, then you can ask for the charge to be quashed/dropped per Section 3(3) of POA:

"POA 3. Service (3) The offence notice or summons shall be served personally upon the person charged within thirty days after the alleged offence occurred."

I'll check into this part when I see it. I don't recall the wording of it now sense I read it once only