I have a question I would like to ask concerning turning right on a red light. I was approaching on the right turn only lane to the traffic light which turned from amber to red. As soon as the red light came on, there were advance green left turn arrow for the intersection I was for the cars that were traveling right to left and left to right of me. Since there was a lot of traffic from where I was coming home from work, I was forced to make a complete stop several car lengths behind the line. As soon as I noticed that there were no cars entering the lane I was turning into, I quickly accelerated and proceed with the right turn when the advance green left arrow was still in effect. A police officer pulled me over accusing me of not stopping for the red light and wrote me a ticket for the Highway Traffic Act 144.18. I decided to go to trial for this traffic ticket. Do you have any suggestions or advice that I should take note of or be aware of? Any help is appreciated.
I have a question I would like to ask concerning turning right on a red light.
I was approaching on the right turn only lane to the traffic light which turned from amber to red. As soon as the red light came on, there were advance green left turn arrow for the intersection I was for the cars that were traveling right to left and left to right of me. Since there was a lot of traffic from where I was coming home from work, I was forced to make a complete stop several car lengths behind the line. As soon as I noticed that there were no cars entering the lane I was turning into, I quickly accelerated and proceed with the right turn when the advance green left arrow was still in effect. A police officer pulled me over accusing me of not stopping for the red light and wrote me a ticket for the Highway Traffic Act 144.18.
I decided to go to trial for this traffic ticket. Do you have any suggestions or advice that I should take note of or be aware of? Any help is appreciated.
Hello Ravage, and welcome to the forum. A question for you - was your vehicle completely stopped at the time when there were no other vehicles between your car and the intersection? In other words, did you just follow the car in front of you without stopping first?
Hello Ravage, and welcome to the forum.
A question for you - was your vehicle completely stopped at the time when there were no other vehicles between your car and the intersection? In other words, did you just follow the car in front of you without stopping first?
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"
Hi racer, It was around 6pm on a weekday when this happened. There were maybe 1 or 2 cars between me and the intersection. Also, there were also probably 2-3 cars behind me as well that made the turn at the same time. There were actually 1 or 2 officers set up pulling all the cars over on the lane that was closing. Basically, I was turning into a road with 2 lanes and 1 closing lane.
Hi racer,
It was around 6pm on a weekday when this happened. There were maybe 1 or 2 cars between me and the intersection. Also, there were also probably 2-3 cars behind me as well that made the turn at the same time.
There were actually 1 or 2 officers set up pulling all the cars over on the lane that was closing. Basically, I was turning into a road with 2 lanes and 1 closing lane.
Ok, so here is a no-fault sequence of events (I assume 2 vehicles in front of you) 1-st vehicle comes to a complete stop before the crosswalk line (I assume there is one there), then turns right. All other vehicles advance, 2-nd vehicle stops, then turns right. Your vehicle advances to the intersection, STOPS COMPLETELY, then turns right. And so on. Here is a YOUR fault sequence of events 1-st vehicle comes to a complete stop before the crosswalk line (I assume there is one there), then turns right. All other vehicles advance, 2-nd vehicle stops, then turns right. Your vehicle follows right behind the 2-nd vehicle without stopping before the crosswalk line and makes a right turn.
Ok, so here is a no-fault sequence of events (I assume 2 vehicles in front of you)
1-st vehicle comes to a complete stop before the crosswalk line (I assume there is one there), then turns right.
All other vehicles advance, 2-nd vehicle stops, then turns right.
Your vehicle advances to the intersection, STOPS COMPLETELY, then turns right.
And so on.
Here is a YOUR fault sequence of events
1-st vehicle comes to a complete stop before the crosswalk line (I assume there is one there), then turns right.
All other vehicles advance, 2-nd vehicle stops, then turns right.
Your vehicle follows right behind the 2-nd vehicle without stopping before the crosswalk line and makes a right turn.
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"
It was not just me that the police officers pulled over, so the two scenarios wouldn't fit completely. For the no-fault and my fault, will it make a difference if i stopped one car length before the crosswalk line? I made a stop, but it wasn't precisely behind the line.
It was not just me that the police officers pulled over, so the two scenarios wouldn't fit completely.
For the no-fault and my fault, will it make a difference if i stopped one car length before the crosswalk line? I made a stop, but it wasn't precisely behind the line.
Here is another section that you were in violation of: HTA 144 (14) Green Arrow - Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing one or more green arrow indications only OR in combination with a circular red or circular amber indication and facing the indication may proceed ONLY to follow the direction shown by the arrow.
Here is another section that you were in violation of:
HTA 144 (14) Green Arrow - Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing one or more green arrow indications only OR in combination with a circular red or circular amber indication and facing the indication may proceed ONLY to follow the direction shown by the arrow.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
I've never given this section of the Act much thought, but now I wonder what it means by "facing the indication." Say there are two (or more) lanes of traffic in each direction, with a traffic signal light stack above or to the right of the right-hand lane, and another signal light stack above or to the left of the left-hand lane. Only the one on the left has the green left-turn arrow component, and the arrow is illuminated. The one on the right is a standard round red over round amber over round green, and it is showing red. I would have thought a vehicle in the right-hand lane could legally make a right turn as usual (after coming to a full stop, ascertaining that there were no pedestrians or other traffic, etc., etc.). But now I wonder: does that left-turn green arrow govern the whole intersection? A vehicle in the right lane is "approaching the traffic control signal ... and facing the indication" (facing it at an angle, but certainly facing it -- not facing away from it), which suggests that any right turn at that intersection, no matter how carefully made, might be illegal whenever any green left arrow is lit. I'll have to watch for this when I'm on the road tomorrow, but I would appreciate some guidance.
hwybear wrote:
Here is another section that you were in violation of:
HTA 144 (14) Green Arrow - Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing one or more green arrow indications only OR in combination with a circular red or circular amber indication and facing the indication may proceed ONLY to follow the direction shown by the arrow.
I've never given this section of the Act much thought, but now I wonder what it means by "facing the indication."
Say there are two (or more) lanes of traffic in each direction, with a traffic signal light stack above or to the right of the right-hand lane, and another signal light stack above or to the left of the left-hand lane. Only the one on the left has the green left-turn arrow component, and the arrow is illuminated. The one on the right is a standard round red over round amber over round green, and it is showing red.
I would have thought a vehicle in the right-hand lane could legally make a right turn as usual (after coming to a full stop, ascertaining that there were no pedestrians or other traffic, etc., etc.). But now I wonder: does that left-turn green arrow govern the whole intersection? A vehicle in the right lane is "approaching the traffic control signal ... and facing the indication" (facing it at an angle, but certainly facing it -- not facing away from it), which suggests that any right turn at that intersection, no matter how carefully made, might be illegal whenever any green left arrow is lit. I'll have to watch for this when I'm on the road tomorrow, but I would appreciate some guidance.
This is very interesting to say the least. I would say no one can turn right on the red in this instance, b/c the section read "may proceed ONLY to follow the direction shown by the arrow". Making the turn on the red, would not be following the direction shown by the green arrow. Open lane or not. Most officers do not even know about this section. So quite honestly, how would most of the public know. Then a JP would probably wonder about finding guilt, although ignorance is no excuse. If there was a collision, when the person turns right on a red, and an opposing vehicle had turned left on a green arrow, think this would be an appropriate charge.
Reflections wrote:
No, you can still turn right as long as you have an empty lane to turn into.
This is very interesting to say the least. I would say no one can turn right on the red in this instance, b/c the section read "may proceed ONLY to follow the direction shown by the arrow". Making the turn on the red, would not be following the direction shown by the green arrow. Open lane or not.
Most officers do not even know about this section. So quite honestly, how would most of the public know. Then a JP would probably wonder about finding guilt, although ignorance is no excuse. If there was a collision, when the person turns right on a red, and an opposing vehicle had turned left on a green arrow, think this would be an appropriate charge.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
In this case, why are there also signs saying "No right turn on red light" on some intersections with left turn arrow indications? Perhaps you have to face the arrow indication for the law to be applicable?
hwybear wrote:
Here is another section that you were in violation of:
HTA 144 (14) Green Arrow - Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing one or more green arrow indications only OR in combination with a circular red or circular amber indication and facing the indication may proceed ONLY to follow the direction shown by the arrow.
In this case, why are there also signs saying "No right turn on red light" on some intersections with left turn arrow indications? Perhaps you have to face the arrow indication for the law to be applicable?
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"
This would be my impression. Rights on reds are allowed in Ontario unless signed otherwise. If the road you are turning into has two or more lanes then I say go ahead. If you are turning onto a road with only one lane then you have to wait. Quite simple really.
racer wrote:
In this case, why are there also signs saying "No right turn on red light" on some intersections with left turn arrow indications? Perhaps you have to face the arrow indication for the law to be applicable?
This would be my impression. Rights on reds are allowed in Ontario unless signed otherwise. If the road you are turning into has two or more lanes then I say go ahead. If you are turning onto a road with only one lane then you have to wait. Quite simple really.
http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com
I came back from the court yesterday and I'm glad to say that my charge was changed to a 144.10 instead. Obeying lane lights (10) Every driver shall obey every traffic control signal that applies to the lane that he or she is in. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (10). I was able to prove that I did make a stop before the intersection and such, so the judge was very reasonable. Although I may have went on further on about how I am only concerned about my original violation, but who cares, no demerit points. Thanks for your help, guys
I came back from the court yesterday and I'm glad to say that my charge was changed to a 144.10 instead.
Obeying lane lights
(10) Every driver shall obey every traffic control signal that applies to the lane that he or she is in. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (10).
I was able to prove that I did make a stop before the intersection and such, so the judge was very reasonable. Although I may have went on further on about how I am only concerned about my original violation, but who cares, no demerit points.
I''m still not sure that 144 (14) cannot be interpreted either way. 144 (10) "Every driver shall obey every traffic control signal that applies to the lane that he or she is in," might imply that separate signal stacks would apply differentially to the individual lanes at an intersection with more than one lane in each direction. That's what I've always thought (agreeing with racer and Reflections). But 144 (10) does say "every" signal that applies to your lane, so more than one signal may apply. And the Act does go on in several subsections, including 144 (14), to use the formula "approaching a traffic control signal showing a [whatever] indication and facing the indication" (emphasis added), which I think could well be interpreted to mean that any right turn at that intersection would be illegal whenever any green arrow is lit. It depends on what you think the Act means by"approaching" and "facing." The Act does not say in 144 (14) that you have to be approaching the green arrow in the signal "nearest your lane" or "directly in front of you" to be governed by it, only that you are "approaching" the signal and "facing" it. How many degrees off your heading can the green arrow signal be before you are no longer "facing" it? I think we all inadvertently break laws every time we drive: all we can do is drive responsibly and sensibly, and avoid those odd things that we know may result in our getting charged and convicted. This is just something I'd never thought of, that might be one of those odd things: any given JP might jump either way on it.
I''m still not sure that 144 (14) cannot be interpreted either way.
144 (10) "Every driver shall obey every traffic control signal that applies to the lane that he or she is in," might imply that separate signal stacks would apply differentially to the individual lanes at an intersection with more than one lane in each direction. That's what I've always thought (agreeing with racer and Reflections). But 144 (10) does say "every" signal that applies to your lane, so more than one signal may apply. And the Act does go on in several subsections, including 144 (14), to use the formula "approaching a traffic control signal showing a [whatever] indication and facing the indication" (emphasis added), which I think could well be interpreted to mean that any right turn at that intersection would be illegal whenever any green arrow is lit.
It depends on what you think the Act means by"approaching" and "facing."
The Act does not say in 144 (14) that you have to be approaching the green arrow in the signal "nearest your lane" or "directly in front of you" to be governed by it, only that you are "approaching" the signal and "facing" it. How many degrees off your heading can the green arrow signal be before you are no longer "facing" it?
I think we all inadvertently break laws every time we drive: all we can do is drive responsibly and sensibly, and avoid those odd things that we know may result in our getting charged and convicted. This is just something I'd never thought of, that might be one of those odd things: any given JP might jump either way on it.
So when you come to an intersection with a "Left Turn" light, but also the regular lights this is when you follow your arrows. If the left turn arrow is on and regular lights are green then all of you go. If only the "Turning" arrows are lit then turns may be completed. If an officer is splitting hair on this then someone hasn't had his "TIMS" yet.
"Every driver shall obey every traffic control signal that applies to the lane that he or she is in,"
So when you come to an intersection with a "Left Turn" light, but also the regular lights this is when you follow your arrows. If the left turn arrow is on and regular lights are green then all of you go. If only the "Turning" arrows are lit then turns may be completed. If an officer is splitting hair on this then someone hasn't had his "TIMS" yet.
http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com
So next traffic stop I have all I have to do is subliminally mention "TIMS" 15 to 20 times and the officer will thank me for my time and tell me to be on my way???????????????
So next traffic stop I have all I have to do is subliminally mention "TIMS" 15 to 20 times and the officer will thank me for my time and tell me to be on my way???????????????
http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com
I'm turning right on a Red unless there's a sign specifically stating not to. It's what people behind me would expect me to do, and being predictable is usually the safe thing to do and decreases the chance of road rage. Note: We have ONE intersection in town that says "No right on red" and is meant to deter drivers from using a certain side-street. It was put up to pacify a bunch of whiny (but influential) residents who felt there were too many cars using "their" road. I'm not sure if disobeying it would be an HTA offence or it it's just a city by-law. Most cars ignore it and turn. The speed limit on this side-street was also reduced to 40kmh, for no other reason than to appease the residents living there. I'm not sure if a municipality can legally enforce an artificially low speed limit (for reasons other than safely) but I regularly see the local LEO's running radar (*or) laser on it.
I'm turning right on a Red unless there's a sign specifically stating not to. It's what people behind me would expect me to do, and being predictable is usually the safe thing to do and decreases the chance of road rage.
Note: We have ONE intersection in town that says "No right on red" and is meant to deter drivers from using a certain side-street. It was put up to pacify a bunch of whiny (but influential) residents who felt there were too many cars using "their" road. I'm not sure if disobeying it would be an HTA offence or it it's just a city by-law. Most cars ignore it and turn.
The speed limit on this side-street was also reduced to 40kmh, for no other reason than to appease the residents living there. I'm not sure if a municipality can legally enforce an artificially low speed limit (for reasons other than safely) but I regularly see the local LEO's running radar (*or) laser on it.
Last edited by Bookm on Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
just don't whine to the rest of us IF you should ever get a ticket then...you are now well informed!! :) HTA charge with 2 demerit points = Disobey sign Absolutely enforceable, and municipalities can set their own speed limits. HTA 128(2)
Bookm wrote:
I'm turning right on a Red unless there's a sign specifically stating not to.
just don't whine to the rest of us IF you should ever get a ticket then...you are now well informed!!
Bookm wrote:
I'm not sure if disobeying it would be an HTA offence or it it's just a city by-law. Most cars ignore it and turn.
HTA charge with 2 demerit points = Disobey sign
Bookm wrote:
The speed limit on this side-street was also reduced to 40kmh, for no other reason than to appease the residents living there. I'm not sure if a municipality can legally enforce an artificially low speed limit (for reasons other than safely) but I regularly see the local LEO's running radar of laser on it.
Absolutely enforceable, and municipalities can set their own speed limits. HTA 128(2)
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
just don't whine to the rest of us IF you should ever get a ticket then...you are now well informed!! :) NP.. I obey the sign. But I was once honked at, from behind, to get going (groan).
hwybear wrote:
Bookm wrote:
I'm turning right on a Red unless there's a sign specifically stating not to.
just don't whine to the rest of us IF you should ever get a ticket then...you are now well informed!!
NP.. I obey the sign. But I was once honked at, from behind, to get going (groan).
HTA charge with 2 demerit points = Disobey sign And what would be the OHTA subsection for that? HTA 182(2) Signs also must be in listed in Regulations to be enforced...most of those are in Ont. Reg. 615
racer wrote:
hwybear wrote:
Bookm wrote:
I'm not sure if disobeying it would be an HTA offence or it it's just a city by-law. Most cars ignore it and turn.
HTA charge with 2 demerit points = Disobey sign
And what would be the OHTA subsection for that?
HTA 182(2) Signs also must be in listed in Regulations to be enforced...most of those are in Ont. Reg. 615
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
I followed the procedures mentioned in the previous threads regarding the disclosure and received it today. My court date is November 5 2009 in Whitby. After going through the notes I realized 2 things:
1- the notes are horribly illegible and difficult to read
2- I have notes from two different officers.
Now I am not sure if this means that both the officers will be at court for the hearing or…
I hope I can paint the picture with the accuracy that the truth deserves. I have no intention of just beating a ticket.. but more like beating a really unfair ticket. You decide!
I had entered Canada after a short trip downsouth through Detroit on my way to Toronto. Not being equipped with a GPS unit I had to rely on the printable poorman's version from Mapquest. I followed Huron Church Rd.,…
Need an expert advice here. 10 days ago I got a speeding ticket. Ticket has a fatal error on its face-offense not known to law. It says speeding 75km/hr in posted 60km/hr zone. What is the best way to proceed?
1. Should I completely ignore this ticket and let the JP to quash it?
2. Should I go with option 3 - request a trial and force the fatal error by not showing up at court?
My name is Brian. I am in my late 20s and live in Toronto. I do not own a car but half a dozen times a year I rent one with my Visa. (To get out of the city and go to a beach or ski for example.)
I have never drunk and drive but I face a problem and Im wondering if anyone can tell me what to do. Several months ago I was at a weekend party and had quit a bit to consume. When I stopped…
I was travelling east bound on ellesmere road and approached markham road attempting to make a right turn. All signal lights were red and cars traveling down markham road south were given the green arrow. I slowed down and attempted to make the right turn. I got ticketed by a cop who was parked in a gas station facing the intersection in a (no parking zone). I…
Crested a hill, officer coming at me, pulled a u turn and pulled me over.
I will go back and look again but I thought I was in an 80 not a 70 and I am positive I wasn't doing more than 120. My speedo read 110-115. I have aftermarket tires and rims so I assume this would be the difference.
It was around 7pm, already dark, nobody on the road but myself,…
I am looking for the case law that is commonly used when the prosecution says they only need to disclose the testing pages of a radar manual or laser manual.
I am only interested in the binding decisions (appeals court or higher?), and not in the non-binding Justice of the Peace decisions.
I was pulled over two nights ago and charged with failing to stop a stop sign. On the ticket, it says 'disobey stop sign - foil to stop' and does not say 'fail' -- something I think may be a fatal flaw? I have been driving for 12 years with no tickets, yet I live in Brampton where insurance prices are high so I do not want to be convicted as my insurance rates will spike significantly and…
A friend of mine (who is from China and with no knowledge of English at all) asked me to interpret for him on court.
He got pulled over by a stealth patrol car last october, got 3 tickets (fail to show insurance card, using cell phones and fail to stop on right for emergency vehicle) , court date is next week. He told me his insurance expired for less than a month and other charges are false…
I understand the severity of my offences, and I can't stress how much I regret it. I know I endangered the lives of myself and more importantly others. I usually do not speed and I know running late for work is an unacceptable excuse. I will be a man and accept the consequences of my actions although I would appreciate any advice for my situation.
Guys back in january i got a speeding ticket on dvp, but i am 90% sure he did not caught me on radar, i asked for disclosure request and i just received today, I have asked for: a full copy of the police officers notes, a copy of both sides of the officers copy of the ticket, witness will say statements, speed gun manual, calibration record, repair history and officer's training certificate but…
I need some help here. So today I was on my way to get my tires changed from my winter tires to my regular summer staggered set of tires. I was driving in mississauga on my way to my destination, I got pulled over by an officer where I was given a ticket for having improper mudguards. For some context, I drive a stock 2013 C63 AMG with winter tires at the time. I was never…
I'd like to start this off by saying for the last two weeks I have been browsing the forums. I'm trying to prepare myself for an early resolution meeting with a prosecutor (in Brampton, if that matters). I have a clean record and as a teacher, I always do my best to follow rules (trying to practice what I preach!)
On December 4, 2014 I was preparing to turn right at a very busy intersection.…
I have question, today I was going to work in my normal route there is a triangle intersection with my side being the only one with a stop sign.
There's a car in front me who stopped at the stop sign, and the third-side there's a incoming car with their hazard-light flashing but they don't have stop sign, yet coming in at a slow speed.
Right after the car in front me went through the stop sign,…
On my way to work this morning I received a ticket for disobey sign. I was on Hwy 10 Mississauga in the right lane. The right lane leads to the 401 and there is a sign saying Right Lane Exits. I Tried to merge left before the on ramp as did 3 other people. We all got a ticket for doing that. Is there anything I can do? I did not realize I was breaking any law it was a dotted line where I tried to…
This is my first post, before I jump right in I would like to thank the forum, members, posters and moderators for all the information posted. I feel like I have been able to learn a lot from others experiences, so thank you all.
This will be a lengthy post. But if you are dealing with a Disobey Sign HTA 182(2) - No Straight Through Intersection you may find this extremely…
Let me start this with saying that this isn't in regards to a ticket, more a discussion surrounding front license plates and learning about the rules behind them. (Most of the quote stuff is using colloquial terms, mostly because I couldn't really find a better way to describe it; it's not meant to be offensive.)
I know Ontario law/HTA mandates having a front license plate unlike some States in…
Hi Guys! I've just had my trial day yesterday. I was not at fault but was convicted anyways.
It is such a travesty! There is no justice at the traffic court. It is just a no mercy machine to part someone with his money, no common sense applies and no reasonable argument being considered. Such a shame! The justice, the policeman and the prosecutor ganged up against me. The justice kept interrupting…
Well first of all ... glad to have found the forum - hoping to find answers to 'alot' of questions
I was unfortunate in July 2010 in that I ended up rolling my 2009 Ranger three times, through a fence and landing on the roof on a rained-out road that was/is in need of proper repair in Eastern Ontario.
I was assisted out of the vehicle by the driver who was behind me.
I was traveling down the 401, noticed a speed trap, and started flashing my lights -- in order to warn oncoming drivers.
Within a 30 seconds, a car slowed, crossed the grass, and approached me from behind. Lights appeared, and I then realised that this was an officer in an undercover car.
The officer pulled me over, and while he was polite, clearly his motivation was to…
Does anyone know the specific law, statute, Charter right to refer to when a prosecutor or justice attempts to change the charge on a ticket after a trial has begun? I assume I'd object immediately (without interrupting anyone, of course) but what would be the specific legal basis of my objection?
I was right behind a school bus that looked like it was pulling over to the side in order to turn down a side street, I saw no lights so decided to go around (wide street). Was still moving as I was passing, then as I did pass I heard horn and looked back and in fact it was pulling over to p/u school kids (was a block away from my son's school, so just assumed it wouldn't be picking up kids...it…
