Hi all, At 7:29AM on my own car's clock, I proceeded to turn right at an intersection that had a sign restricting right turns between 7:30AM and 6:00PM. I got stopped by an officer who's first question was "How do you like your new car?" and other time-wasting stall tactics. Eventually, at 7:36AM on my car's clock, he issued me my ticket noted at 7:40AM. What gives? Can I mount an effective defense against the charge, besides hoping the officer doesn't show? What about a Notice of Constitutional Question, given that the offence was in May 2007 and my first trial date is June 2008? Thanks for any info anyone can offer...
Hi all,
At 7:29AM on my own car's clock, I proceeded to turn right at an intersection that had a sign restricting right turns between 7:30AM and 6:00PM. I got stopped by an officer who's first question was "How do you like your new car?" and other time-wasting stall tactics. Eventually, at 7:36AM on my car's clock, he issued me my ticket noted at 7:40AM.
What gives? Can I mount an effective defense against the charge, besides hoping the officer doesn't show? What about a Notice of Constitutional Question, given that the offence was in May 2007 and my first trial date is June 2008?
You should definitely consider raising an argument under section 11(b) of the Charter any time a case takes longer than 9-12 months to get to Trial and the delay is not due to the Defendant. Here is a link with a sample Notice that you need to prepare and serve on the Crown and file with the Court. http://www.magma.ca/~fyst/question.htm I am not sure how I came across it, but it has all of the basic elements needed for the document. At the Motion hearing, you will want to argue that your case has been prejudiced by the un-justified delay. You may also want to stress that any evidence given by witnesses may not be as reliable as memories do fade. Be sure to let us know how you make out with your argument, if you have further questions, be sure to post them.
You should definitely consider raising an argument under section 11(b) of the Charter any time a case takes longer than 9-12 months to get to Trial and the delay is not due to the Defendant. Here is a link with a sample Notice that you need to prepare and serve on the Crown and file with the Court.
I am not sure how I came across it, but it has all of the basic elements needed for the document.
At the Motion hearing, you will want to argue that your case has been prejudiced by the un-justified delay. You may also want to stress that any evidence given by witnesses may not be as reliable as memories do fade.
Be sure to let us know how you make out with your argument, if you have further questions, be sure to post them.
This sounds exactly like mine. Made a turn just around 6:50 AM near Downsview... (don't know Toronto to well, so I pulled over to the side street). Was browsing at my map for a few minutes and the cop walked up to my car to give me a ticket (before the 7AM restriction) I'm going to try and fight it. Offence date was early Nov 2007. Court date has been set for Jan 2009! Couple things I have been considering to defend myself: - Almost 15 months to defend myself? - Verifying his source of time. I am going to request CPIC/MTO queries to verify the time he ran my plate. If he did it over the radio, going to see if I can get timestamps. He did this well before 7 AM - how could he have my DL# if the offence occured after 7AM? - The no right turn sign is not posted in advance of the intersection (remember being a min distance in the HTA somewhere) Anyhow - never been to court before (I prefer not to hang out there :P )... any suggestions on how I can present evidence? Thinking of going to watch a few cases to see how it works. RE: Notice/Motion - is this something you need to wait for your court date for or something you file in advance of the court date? Any suggestions would be great! Thanks!
This sounds exactly like mine.
Made a turn just around 6:50 AM near Downsview... (don't know Toronto to well, so I pulled over to the side street). Was browsing at my map for a few minutes and the cop walked up to my car to give me a ticket (before the 7AM restriction)
I'm going to try and fight it. Offence date was early Nov 2007. Court date has been set for Jan 2009!
Couple things I have been considering to defend myself:
- Almost 15 months to defend myself?
- Verifying his source of time. I am going to request CPIC/MTO queries to verify the time he ran my plate. If he did it over the radio, going to see if I can get timestamps. He did this well before 7 AM - how could he have my DL# if the offence occured after 7AM?
- The no right turn sign is not posted in advance of the intersection (remember being a min distance in the HTA somewhere)
Anyhow - never been to court before (I prefer not to hang out there )... any suggestions on how I can present evidence? Thinking of going to watch a few cases to see how it works.
RE: Notice/Motion - is this something you need to wait for your court date for or something you file in advance of the court date?
My opinion is that the "No Turn" sign should be visible at or before the turn. If there are multiple streets in one area then the sign should indicate which street(s) has the restriction.
My opinion is that the "No Turn" sign should be visible at or before the turn. If there are multiple streets in one area then the sign should indicate which street(s) has the restriction.
http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com
I have had time challenged in court before, guy brings in a gas receipt where he filled up 3km away....stated impossible to get from that gas station to the stopped location in the time indicated on the ticket compared to the gas receipt.....and he was an "engineer" and can make the calculations..distance over time......anyway, prosecutor asked what time my watch was on the stand, I told him, turned to the big court clock, it was different.....JP quickly tossed that defence as the JP's watch did not match mine or the court clock. Basically as long as it was the proper day and time was relatively close it's good to go. However, I can certainly see the importance in your situation, but don't know how to clarify the time issue. That is not the case for a "no turn sign". It also does not make sense. The sign must be visible if stopped at that intersection. So when the light changes or whatever, the driver can't say they didn't see the sign, which would be the case if it was posted prior to the intersection.
tmtu wrote:
Verifying his source of time. I am going to request CPIC/MTO queries to verify the time he ran my plate. If he did it over the radio, going to see if I can get timestamps. He did this well before 7 AM - how could he have my DL# if the offence occured after 7AM?
I have had time challenged in court before, guy brings in a gas receipt where he filled up 3km away....stated impossible to get from that gas station to the stopped location in the time indicated on the ticket compared to the gas receipt.....and he was an "engineer" and can make the calculations..distance over time......anyway, prosecutor asked what time my watch was on the stand, I told him, turned to the big court clock, it was different.....JP quickly tossed that defence as the JP's watch did not match mine or the court clock. Basically as long as it was the proper day and time was relatively close it's good to go.
However, I can certainly see the importance in your situation, but don't know how to clarify the time issue.
tmtu wrote:
- The no right turn sign is not posted in advance of the intersection (remember being a min distance in the HTA somewhere)
That is not the case for a "no turn sign". It also does not make sense. The sign must be visible if stopped at that intersection. So when the light changes or whatever, the driver can't say they didn't see the sign, which would be the case if it was posted prior to the intersection.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
I know this thread is old but I was browsing through and couldn't help putting my two cents in. Regarding the time of day being close to when you are/not allowed to turn, you can mount a strict liability defence stating you believed the time still permitted you to make the turn. You are morally innocent, especially if we are talking about only a few minutes. For tmtu's charge (since your court date is still pending next year), most restricted turns in Toronto are not valid as the sign has to be bilingual. If the sign restricts a specific time of day than you can easily have the ticket tossed. Discussion board rules prevent me from linking to my own site but step by step instructions to make the argument can be found in "Step 5". Click the "bilingual defence" link on the right navigation bar.
I know this thread is old but I was browsing through and couldn't help putting my two cents in.
Regarding the time of day being close to when you are/not allowed to turn, you can mount a strict liability defence stating you believed the time still permitted you to make the turn. You are morally innocent, especially if we are talking about only a few minutes.
For tmtu's charge (since your court date is still pending next year), most restricted turns in Toronto are not valid as the sign has to be bilingual. If the sign restricts a specific time of day than you can easily have the ticket tossed. Discussion board rules prevent me from linking to my own site but step by step instructions to make the argument can be found in "Step 5". Click the "bilingual defence" link on the right navigation bar.
I searched but could not retrieve a satisfactory answer.
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