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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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No Insurance
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:04 am 
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Hi there,
my first post here, unfortunately.
Got on this forum by searching on google " Driving without insurance"
I had the same situation as the topic starter here:
CAIA - Owner cause motor vehicle to operate - no insurance 2 (1) (b)
HTA - Drive Motor Vehicle no Permit - 7 (1) (a)
HTA - Fail to apply for permit on becoming owner - 11 (2)
HTA - use plate not authorized for vehicle 12 (1) (d)
Basically, I privately bought a used car, paid for it a month ago (that's when the bill of sale is dated) but got it trailed just today, and was driving to a service facility to get the car e-tested and certified. But I put on it plates from a different car. I know double stupid.
No Insurance, Different plates.
One lawyer said - go to prosecutor, plead guilty, they may reduce the fine.
Other said fight it - though for me right now it is not clear how to fight it.
The conversation with the officer was very brief - where's the insurance slip - don't have it, -ok stay in the car - then got back and said these are the summons - took off the plates and I had to tow the car to the service facility - got it etested and certified. I didn't even have time to explain properly.
Now my questions is - I got the insurance same day, what if I say to the prosecutor - I thought the officer asked the insurance slip, but I don't have it , as I just ordered it and was on my way to certify and etest the car, I KNOW WITH WRONG PLATES ON IT. Will I (or a good lawyer) be able to convert the NO INSURANCE charge into the NO INSURANCE SLIP charge?
The other thing is that I just got the car, and was on my way to the service facility, so the charges of Drive vehicle no permit and fail to apply for permit on becoming owner are the easiest one.
So I have a tough call to make, either plead guilty and take whatever they need - but my problem is not the fine, I want to not get the other consequences of the NO INSURANCE - suspended licence and higher insurance rates, OR
Get the insurance slip with the same day and say I didn't understand the question and try to requalify the charge from NO INSURANCE ($5000) to NO Insurance Slip ($65 or $100)
What are your thoughts?
Thanks


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Re: No Insurance
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:08 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1722
Question... Are each of the charges a SUMMONS or are any of them a NOTICE OF OFFENCE? Can you scan and post all the tickets (with personal info and officer info blanked out) and we can check for fatal errors for you.

The problem you have is that if you plead guilty to all of these, your insurance will sky rocket. The most serious of these being the NO INSURANCE charge. So you may want to hire a lawyer, however you can save yourself some money by going to the summons date yourself and seeing if you get a offered a plea deal ahead of time, and then you will only need to hire lawyer if you decide to go to trial.

If you got insurance the same day the charge was laid, then take all your proof with you that you had insurance that day and the prosecutor MIGHT drop it to a no insurance slip charge. If the prosecutor is in a really good mood, they might even drop one or two of the other charges if you plead guilty to the other ones. Anyways, the prosecutor does NOT have to offer you a plea deal of any kind, but they might so it does not hurt your chances to try.

For any summons that you have, you will show up on the date on the summons (this is NOT your trial) and you will have three options at the summons date:
- plead guilty (not recommended);
- plead not guilty and ask for disclosure and a trial (they will set a trial date for you);
- ask to review disclosure before you decide how you want to plead (they will set a new summons date for you to come back again).

Usually the prosecutor will meet with you before hand, and this is when you would show all your insurance stuff and they MIGHT offer you a plea deal at this point. If they offer you a plea deal, you have a few choices:
- You can so no to the plea deal and say you would like disclsoure and a trial date (not recommended);
- You can just accept the plea deal as offered and be done with everything;
- You can nicely ask the prosecutor if you can review disclosure before you decide whether to take the deal they offered. Now the prosecutor may say "sure" which is the best choice because then you will get to see the officers notes and decide if they have everything in the notes they need to charge you at trial or if something is missing. The prosecutor may also say "no, the deal is for now only" in which case you need to decide if you want to take the deal right then and there or risk going to trial.

My suggestion is that if the prosecutor offers you any kind of deal where you get the NO INSURANCE dropped, you probably want to take that deal even if you have to plead guilty to some of the other charges.

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+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


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Re: No Insurance
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 10:34 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:30 am
Posts: 788
I'd be very surprised if you get offered a deal on the No Insurance because it is a slam dunk and a very serious charge. You either did or did not have insurance and you didn't. Pretty much the same with the other charges.

Unless you can prove that you were going to get it tested at the garage the prosecutor isn't going to believe you because that's the sort of excuse they hear ALL the time. The assumption will be that you had been driving it around with the wrong plates since you bought it.

Be wary of taking the stand because if you asked if there was insurance in place when you were stopped and you say no, then you're sunk and if you say yes and there wasn't then you are into the criminal court with a perjury charge. Not recommended.

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Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


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Re: No Insurance
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:05 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:31 am
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Hey guys,
Thanks for all of your replies. Really appreciate this.
Here's a couple details - I called an insurance broker to see what can be done, so I do have an other car, and I am fully insured on that car since January 2016 until January 2017. What the insurance broker said, is that I am insured as a driver, but the car wasn't insured. So I have a liability insurance on me, but not on the car.
Of course, no convictions or issues or tickets on my record.
After getting the summons from the officer, I had a towing company to get my car to the service facility, had it etested and certified same day, and then towed it to my house.I added the car to my insurance the next day.
I bought the car couple of weeks ago, but got it delivered on a trail the night before. I can proof that with a paper from the trailer company,
So here's where I am. My biggest fault is that I put the plates from my other car on it, but I did this to have all the papers to register the car. I thought that driving the car with no plates is even worse. I know it's stupid, now that I am looking at the things.
SO I' d want to change the charge from NO insurance to no insurance slip, and the deal with the plates. I want to know what the chances are.
I will add the pics with summons later.

Really appreciate your input.
Cheers


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Re: No Insurance
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:31 am
Posts: 4
Here are the copies. It says Summons to defendant.
Anything helps.


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Re: No Insurance
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:51 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:31 am
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The one with the insurance.


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Re: No Insurance
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:27 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1722
I think no insurance is something like a $5000 fine so you want to do everything possible to get out of this one and usually the prosecutor will not offer to drop this one down.

So if the prosecutor won't drop that one, then you definitely want to get the disclsoure (officers notes) before you decide how to plead. Once you get the notes, then you can go see a lawyer about it.

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+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


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Re: No Insurance
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:26 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:20 am
Posts: 324
No Insurance is a $5,000 fine, minimum for the first offence...you may find the odd JP that will lower it even though there is case law against lowering it...there could also be a licence suspension, although, not likely to happen...


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Re: No Insurance
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:26 am 
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Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:21 am
Posts: 504
if driver had hit another car and or seriously injured that person, what would have been the repercussions.

i.e. he was NOT insured at the time to drive; with essentially the plates from another car

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* NO you cant touch your phone
* Speeding is speeding
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Re: No Insurance
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:44 am
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bobajob wrote:
if driver had hit another car and or seriously injured that person, what would have been the repercussions.

i.e. he was NOT insured at the time to drive; with essentially the plates from another car


The repercussions are that you get sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars and everything comes out of your own pocket.

$5000 is also the minimum fine, not the maximum. The maximum is $25,000 (+surcharge) and a one year license suspension.


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Re: No Insurance
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:21 am
Posts: 504
cool txs

bend wrote:
bobajob wrote:
if driver had hit another car and or seriously injured that person, what would have been the repercussions.

i.e. he was NOT insured at the time to drive; with essentially the plates from another car


The repercussions are that you get sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars and everything comes out of your own pocket.

$5000 is also the minimum fine, not the maximum. The maximum is $25,000 (+surcharge) and a one year license suspension.

_________________
--------------------------------------------------------------
* NO you cant touch your phone
* Speeding is speeding
* Challenge every ticket
* Impaired driving, you should be locked up UNDER the jail


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