Question: Expired Stickers on private property.

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Deimos
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Question: Expired Stickers on private property.

Unread post by Deimos on

I have questions regarding a ticket I received this morning while in the parking lot at my work.

My stickers were in fact expired, and If I had been pulled over on public roads, there would be no question that I was in violation of the traffic act.

However, I was not pulled over and at the time of the ticket, I was parked at my work. While walking from my car to the front door of my office, an OPP cruiser pulled in, parked behind me and asked me to get back in the vehicle. I did not in fact get back in my vehicle, but i did provide him with the information he requested.

I'm wondering if this constitutes a valid stop. At the time of the ticket, I was not on public roads, nor in the vehicle. To my understanding, the Ontario Traffic Act does not apply to private property. I'm also wondering if the officer was even allowed to come onto private property in the first place.

Would I grounds to fight this ticket?


tdottopcop
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Unread post by tdottopcop on

1) You don't have to be stopped on a public road, however the officer does need some evidence that you were driving with the expired tags on a public road.

2) the officer told you to get in your car for his safety- have some respect and comply.

3) Yes he is allowed to carry out traffic stops onto private property from the roadway. Imagine if anytime I didn't want to be stopped by the police I just pulled into a local private parking lot and said, 'I'm safe, you can't get me here'. Doesn't work that way.
No, I am not the chief of Toronto Police.
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Deimos
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Unread post by Deimos on

I completely agree with your second and third point. The only reason I didn't get back into my car was the officer was already walking over, but it was a non issue at that point.

It wasn't like the officer was behind me while I was driving. He didn't pull me over. I had been parked for a good few minutes, got my work stuff in order and starting walking to the door when he pulled in. He would have had to just assume that it was my vehicle.

To me it looked like he pulled in to the parking lot to turn around, but then noticed my stickers and gave me a ticket that would only apply if I were driving on a public road.


Deimos
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Unread post by Deimos on

I guess in other words, if I had been driving with expired stickers and got a ticket, that's life. No big deal there.

But getting a traffic act ticket while not on a public road and while not vehicle doesn't sit well with me.


tdottopcop
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Unread post by tdottopcop on

Yeah.. the offence is 'drive motor vehicle without currently validated permit', so if there is no driving evidence (driving meaning on a highway and not a public road), then the charge doesn't apply.
No, I am not the chief of Toronto Police.
No, I do not work for Toronto Police...
... it is just a name folks :)


Deimos
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Unread post by Deimos on

Yep, I agree with that.
HTA, 7-1-C, "No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a "highway" unless, evidence of the current validation of the permit is affixed"

“highway” includes a common and public highway, street, avenue, parkway, driveway, square, place, bridge, viaduct or trestle, any part of which is intended for or used by the general public for the passage of vehicles and includes the area between the lateral property lines thereof;

I also found this link http://www.dclegal.ca/Parking%20Lots%20 ... %20Law.pdf, which states "Case law in Ontario has determined that the Ontario Highway Traffic Act does not apply to private parking lots. The Supreme Court of Ontario decided an appeal in the matter of R. v. Tresham, and the applicability of the Ontario Highway Traffic Act in matters involving parking lots. It was held that the purpose of the Ontario Highway Traffic Act was not to regulate vehicles on private property, including, private parking lots."

Looks like I have what I need to fight this ticket, based on principle. If I had been stopped while driving, that would have been my own fault.

Thanks for your input on this tdottopcop.


ynotp
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Unread post by ynotp on

If you go to court I would not testify in your own defense. Doing so would mean you would have to admit that were driving on the road moments before. If it goes to trial the only way you could possibly win is if the officer testifies that he saw the car in the parking lot and you exiting from it and that he did not see you drive the car on a public road. You could then argue that the prosecutor has not proven that the offence occurred and ask to have your case dismissed.


bend
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Unread post by bend on

Deimos wrote:Yep, I agree with that.
HTA, 7-1-C, "No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a "highway" unless, evidence of the current validation of the permit is affixed"

“highway” includes a common and public highway, street, avenue, parkway, driveway, square, place, bridge, viaduct or trestle, any part of which is intended for or used by the general public for the passage of vehicles and includes the area between the lateral property lines thereof;

I also found this link http://www.dclegal.ca/Parking%20Lots%20 ... %20Law.pdf, which states "Case law in Ontario has determined that the Ontario Highway Traffic Act does not apply to private parking lots. The Supreme Court of Ontario decided an appeal in the matter of R. v. Tresham, and the applicability of the Ontario Highway Traffic Act in matters involving parking lots. It was held that the purpose of the Ontario Highway Traffic Act was not to regulate vehicles on private property, including, private parking lots."

Looks like I have what I need to fight this ticket, based on principle. If I had been stopped while driving, that would have been my own fault.

Thanks for your input on this tdottopcop.
You're assuming way too much.

You don't know what the officer was doing. It's quite possible he seen you on the road and was running your plates in the meantime. Maybe he likes to sit in the parking lot and run peoples plates after he watches them pull in. The fact you were parked on private property when pulled over is going to mean absolutely nothing if his disclosure makes note of you on the public roads.

You don't have disclosure and you're making a case out of absolutely nothing because in reality, you have no clue what the officer had witnessed up to that point. As already pointed out, private property isn't same kind of "safe zone" where an officer has to automatically retreat. As long as there is a mention of you driving on public roads, it doesn't matter whether you were able to park or not or if an officer took his time to pull you over.

Also, you case law example already says what I just posted. Get your disclosure and make a case. Right now you're just running on assumptions.


Avangel
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Unread post by Avangel on

you'll have to request disclosure and see what the evidence is.

I would have to believe he witnessed you driving on a public road or he would not have issued the po

best of luck


Deimos
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Unread post by Deimos on

bend wrote:
Deimos wrote:Yep, I agree with that.
HTA, 7-1-C, "No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a "highway" unless, evidence of the current validation of the permit is affixed"

“highway” includes a common and public highway, street, avenue, parkway, driveway, square, place, bridge, viaduct or trestle, any part of which is intended for or used by the general public for the passage of vehicles and includes the area between the lateral property lines thereof;

I also found this link http://www.dclegal.ca/Parking%20Lots%20 ... %20Law.pdf, which states "Case law in Ontario has determined that the Ontario Highway Traffic Act does not apply to private parking lots. The Supreme Court of Ontario decided an appeal in the matter of R. v. Tresham, and the applicability of the Ontario Highway Traffic Act in matters involving parking lots. It was held that the purpose of the Ontario Highway Traffic Act was not to regulate vehicles on private property, including, private parking lots."

Looks like I have what I need to fight this ticket, based on principle. If I had been stopped while driving, that would have been my own fault.

Thanks for your input on this tdottopcop.
You're assuming way too much.

You don't know what the officer was doing. It's quite possible he seen you on the road and was running your plates in the meantime. Maybe he likes to sit in the parking lot and run peoples plates after he watches them pull in. The fact you were parked on private property when pulled over is going to mean absolutely nothing if his disclosure makes note of you on the public roads.

You don't have disclosure and you're making a case out of absolutely nothing because in reality, you have no clue what the officer had witnessed up to that point. As already pointed out, private property isn't same kind of "safe zone" where an officer has to automatically retreat. As long as there is a mention of you driving on public roads, it doesn't matter whether you were able to park or not or if an officer took his time to pull you over.

Also, you case law example already says what I just posted. Get your disclosure and make a case. Right now you're just running on assumptions.
You convinced me. I got caught. Thanks for the advice everyone. Really good forum, hope I don't have to use it again any time soon.






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