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Help prepare for trial (Pics and Disclosure inside)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:52 pm
Posts: 2
Hi Everyone,

I am preparing for my trial. Please go through the pics below and suggest what could be the best way to fight this Disobey Stop Sign Charge.

My court date is in late May, which is 14 months after I was charged. I will be applying for 11b but if I don’t get the ‘stay’, I need to be prepared for the trial.

I did stop at the stop sign but of course officer thinks otherwise.

Here is what happened:
Disobey Stop Sign (Consillium Pl and McCowan Rd)
Date : March 17th 2010
Time : 7:30am
Weather Condition: Bright Sunny, dry roads, 100% visibility


Transcript
Officer : Sir, you did not stop at the stop sign back there
Me : Officer I did stop behind the white van
Officer: Well, that’s not good enough. You have to stop behind the stop line. We are getting too many complaints about people not stopping at stop sign here. That’s why we are here today.
Officer : Can I have your registration, insurance and driver license please.
Me : (Gave all required documentations)
Officer : Please wait I will be back.
Officer : (after a while) I am giving you ticket for Disobey stop sign
Me : but officer ….
Officer : Don’t worry, come to trial and we will see what we can do for you. Have a good day
Me: You too


Now there were two officers, second officer stood at one location and kept observing the cars approaching the stop sign.

Photos

I took this pic 1 from where the first officer was standing. You can see it was very difficult for officer to judge where the stop sign is and whether I stopped before or after the stop sign.
Image (Pic1)

Pic 2 is taken from where the second officer was standing. He too can’t see the stop sign or the line clearly.
Image (pic2)

Pic3 was taken from the middle of the road. From here you can see the stop sign but no stop line. Of course officers weren’t standing in the middle of the road.
Image (pic3)

In Pic 4 below, you can see the stop line is not even visible
Image (pic4)

Unfortunately, when I received the disclosure it states I rolled through the stop sign. This is not true. I was preparing for this trial from day one but now with different statement from officer have made it hard for me to win this ticket. Also there is nothing mentioned about the second officer in the disclosure.
Image

I think reason why officer felt I rolled through the stop sign because when traffic stopped on the left of us. We both cars (White van and mine) pulled out at the same time. Since officer assumed white van in front of me is at the stop sign therefore he felt I rolled the stop sign.

Can someone advice on how to approach this situation. Any tips or suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks


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Re: Help prepare for trial (Pics and Disclosure inside)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:49 pm
Posts: 2110
Location: Ontario
Some more details would be helpful. Did the officer who charged you actually observe the offence? Or was the second officer acting as a spotter and call it in to him? I can't help but feel you should have some more disclosure, especially if the two officers were working together. The notes seem quite brief and it's possible there would be further notes from the other officer as well as some initial notes describing the intersection when they set up to conduct enforcement.

In regards to your photos, I agree that they show the stop line to be quite worn, but I disagree that it would be difficult for an officer to clearly tell if and where you came to a full stop. Lens distortion and picture size makes distance a little difficult to gauge, but I'm guessing they were 50-60 meters away? Not hard to tell if a vehicle comes to a full stop from that distance. Even if they can't see the stop line itself, they can see other objects like the sign, poles, etc., that give them a point of reference to know where the actual stop line is. And if their evidence is that you failed to stop completely versus stopping in the wrong place, exact location of the stop line becomes somewhat less relevant.

Quote:
Stop at through highway

136. (1) Every driver or street car operator approaching a stop sign at an intersection,
(a) shall stop his or her vehicle or street car at a marked stop line or, if none, then immediately before entering the nearest crosswalk or, if none, then immediately before entering the intersection;


FYI, don't count on your photos being admissible as evidence in court. You'll have to really read up on the procedures of getting photos qualified and admitted if you plan on using them.

Maybe some more experience people could give you better advice on how to actually fight the charge.


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Re: Help prepare for trial (Pics and Disclosure inside)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:38 pm 
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Newbie

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:52 pm
Posts: 2
Thanks Stanton

Both officers were observing the stop sign. But only one of them gave me the ticket. The other officer stood there and continued to observe the stop sign.
So second officer did not play any active role.

What does "fully marked scout" means and what relevance it has with this ticket?

Also can you provide any authentic link where I can read on admissible pics?

Thanks again


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Re: Help prepare for trial (Pics and Disclosure inside)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:05 pm 
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VIP
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:20 am
Posts: 1065
Fully marked scout means fully marked scout car (i.e. police vehicle). This is of no consequence.

I think you're wasting time pursuing anything about the second officer. It's not uncommon for officers to go to the same location together to do selective enforcement. Each one is responsible for his own notes for the vehicles he stops. If you ask for notes of the other officer they'll probably just say they have nothing related to you and that would probably be true.

_________________
http://www.boryslaw.ca
NOTHING I SAY ON HERE IS LEGAL ADVICE.


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Re: Help prepare for trial (Pics and Disclosure inside)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:57 pm 
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Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:26 pm
Posts: 2881
Location: Toronto
For info on admissibility of pictures... go to "Courts and Procedure" section of this website and click on the thread about Guidelines for Submitting Photographs.

_________________
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


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