No Insurance, no permit

Tylel2here
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No Insurance, no permit

by: Tylel2here on
Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:56 pm

I have been caught driving without insurance, and also without a validated permit. I have a month until my court date, and will deal with that when the time comes. After the officer explained to me what was going to happen, he took my license plates.

My question is am I able to go the the Ministry of Transportation and get new plates? I now have valid insurance, but what sort of situation am I facing when dealing with the MTO. I bought this car used two years ago, will I need to have it re certified, and have an emission test done, the car is in my name but on my ownership it has the confiscated plate number - will that be a problem?

Thank you for any input.


screeech
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by: screeech on
Thu Jan 07, 2016 1:19 pm

If those plates were in your name, and were for that car, I don't know why the plates were seized. What exactly were the two charges? (including section numbers)...


ynotp
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by: ynotp on
Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:52 pm

If the ownership says FIT and the officer did not pull your plates because the vehicle was unsafe then you should be able to take the ownership into a service Ontario and buy new plates without a recertification. Drive clean test is good for a year so if you did one it is still valid.




Tylel2here
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by: Tylel2here on
Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:53 pm

Well they were seized. I caught a lucky break as the road I was driving on was single lane, and had little shoulder to park on so I pulled into a residential driveway (private property), so the car wasn't toed by the O.P.P. Perhaps this is why my plates were taken?

The offences are:

No Insurance - Compulsory Automobile Insurance Act 2 (1) (a)
Not Currently Validated Permit - Highway Traffic Act 7 (1) (a)
Use Validation Not Furnished For Vehicle - Highway Traffic Act 12 (1) (b)

The ownership is in my name.

My court date is 3 weeks from now, and I'm a little unsure if I need to look into getting legal representation as I am guilty of not having insurance.

If there are any tips, or suggestions they would be much appreciated.

I have never been in an accident before, received a moving violation, (2 parking tickets is all), I have never been arrested.


Stanton
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by: Stanton on
Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:33 pm

You failed to mention your third charge. It now makes sense why your plates were seized.
14. (1) Where a police officer or an officer appointed under this Act has reason to believe that,
(a) a number plate attached to a motor vehicle or trailer,
(i) has not been authorized under this Act for use on that vehicle,
(ii) was obtained by false pretences, or
(iii) has been defaced or altered;
(b) evidence of validation of a permit displayed on a motor vehicle,
(i) was not furnished under this Act in respect of that motor vehicle
,
(ii) was obtained by false pretences, or
(iii) has been defaced or altered; or
(c) a permit carried by a driver of a motor vehicle,
(i) was not authorized under this Act in respect of that motor vehicle,
(ii) was obtained by false pretences, or
(iii) has been defaced or altered,
the officer may take possession of the number plate, evidence of validation or permit and retain it until the facts have been determined.
You’re unfortunately facing some very serious charges. Using a fraudulent validation carries a fine of between $100 to $1,000 as well as a possible 6 month licence suspension and possible 30 day jail sentence. Driving with no insurance carries a minimum fine of $5,000 on your first offence.

You should have been served a summons for your offences. If so your first Court date will not be a trial but a chance to determine how you're going to proceed. You can enter a plea of not guilty for the time being. You can then see if the Crown is willing to offer you a plea deal.

No insurance is a tough charge to fight as it's essentially reverse onus (i.e you need to show the Court you were insured). It's difficult to speak to the false validation charge without knowing more details. Did you mix up stickers between vehicles or were you using a sticker that didn't belong to you?

You'll want to review disclosure and see what evidence the police have. You can then determine if it's better to try and fight the charges or simply work out a plea deal to try and minimize the damage.


screeech
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by: screeech on
Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:56 am

I knew there was more to this story...Charge #3 cleared up the mystery of the seized plates...Prosecutor would likely take a plea to the insurance charge and withdraw the other two...Given the fine amount, you can request an extended amount of time to pay (a year), if you are making regular payments within that year, you can ask for a further extension, if you are not making regular payments, they won't give you extra time and your licence will likely end up suspended for unpaid fines. Although there is a minimum $5,000 fine, you may find a JP to lower it with a good reason. There is however, case law stating minimums are minimums, so it won't be lowered down. So don't be suprized if a JP won't lower it.


jsherk
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by: jsherk on
Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:06 am

You had better start calling around to several lawyers to find one that has a winning track record of beating the no insurance charge as that is very serious (and a hard to beat)!

If you were issued a SUMMONS (it says Summons at the top of the ticket), this is not your trial date so you can go yourself to this one and do not necessarilt need to pay lawyer to go for you.
You can:
(i) Advise the prosecutor you would like to get disclosure before you decide how to plead. In this case they will set another date. This new date is also not a trial, but will be just to ask you how you plan to plead. If you plead not guilty at the this second date, then they will set the actual trial date for you.
(ii) Advise the prosecutor you would like to get disclosure and will be pleading not guilty. In this case they will set the actual trial date for you.

If you were issued NOTICE OF OFFENCE then you should choose Not Guilty option and request a trial with the officer present. Once you get notice of trial then you can request disclosure (officers notes).
+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


screeech
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by: screeech on
Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:27 pm

There is no set fine for a no insurance charge as well as the Use Validation Not Furnished For Vehicle charge , therefore, they have to be summones. If properly laid, the other charge should also have been a summmons. A lawyer or paralegal will charge a pile of money to defend this charge ($1,500-$2,000 type of thing) for which he says he is guilty of anyway. That money could go a long way to pay off the fine, which he will likely get if he goes to trial, plus then needing to pay the legal fees. Some people actually will plead guilty to things they have done without challenging the system. Ya, I get the whole disclosure thing and the right to a trial...however, it is often the best position to go see the prosecutor yourself and get the best deal you can. That's exactly what the paralegals do anyway...cut out the middle man, save money...


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bobajob
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by: bobajob on
Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:20 pm

wow minimum !
Stanton wrote: Driving with no insurance carries a minimum fine of $5,000 on your first offence.
--------------------------------------------------------------
* NO you cant touch your phone
* Speeding is speeding
* Challenge every ticket
* Impaired driving, you should be locked up UNDER the jail




Tylel2here
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by: Tylel2here on
Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:03 pm

Thank you all to this point for the advice. I am still unsure of the best option, as each post seems to be something to consider.

What benefit do I get by delaying, and reviewing the officer's notes other than getting to see what information the officer is providing the Prosecution?

Also, by pleading not guilty (which is a false plea) what defense do I have at trial? Sure it becomes a matter of what the officer can prove, but he could submit my plates as evidence - what would I say to really get off the charges? That is a mystery to me.

I at least like the idea of trying to work out something with the prosecution, such as a guilty plea to the no insurance charge if they are willing to forgive the other two, sounds like a no brainer. In order to get a chance would I show up to court, ask for the officer's notes - meet the Prosecutor, and set a meeting then to discuss then?


screeech
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by: screeech on
Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:19 pm

The thing about the No Insurance charge is that it is a reverse onus charge, meaning, it is up to you to prove you had insurance, not for the prosecution to prove you didn't. The prosecution must prove the other two charges but that won't be too hard really. You just request to go see the prosecutor and see what their position is. You have nothing to lose by trying to deal away the other two charges, I honestly think you have a good chance at that, as long as you don't have a related record. If you don't like what is offered, just request the trial and ask for disclosure. But like I said earlier, a paralegal or lawyer will charge lots for this type of case...call around and get some quotes


karra
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by: karra on
Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:29 pm

It's not unusual for defendants to approach the prosecutor and see if there is anything on the table to be had - with a charge like this, one never knows - essentially you are guilty and are facing the minimum fine - however, talking to the prosecutor may offer the opportunity to get him on board with a reduced fine - I've seen suspended sentences, probation, and $50.00 fines in various courts in eastern Ontario.

Then again, the prosecutor may not offer to assist in any way - if that's the case and there are no extenuating circumstances, then you can plead guilty and make submissions to the court re the amount of fine. The prosecution is on tap to make the first submission - he may ask for the minimum or he may ask for more depending on the circumstances. Regardless of the prosecution fine submission, you are next up and now it's your opportunity to convince the JP that you can't afford the minimum and why - you may also want to have some documents to substantiate this.

For a first 'no insurance' offence - paralegals normally charge around 800.00 - not 1500 - 2k.


Tylel2here
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by: Tylel2here on
Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:42 pm

Thank you for the responses. I have been having trouble focusing with this on my plate, but at least I am becoming better prepared.

I rely on my car to get to school as I am in college, and also work, as I do renovations on my own while I'm in school and during summer break. I told the officer who stopped me that he didn't need to seize my plates as I will get it all straightened out immediately because of my needs, but he said he has heard that before...

The same morning I got my insurance sorted out and they started my policy for the next day - I went to the MTO and got my new plates the next day also.

I am wondering if there is good will to be had by doing that in the court's eyes, or if there is an angle I can use by getting everything sorted the next day.

Can I claim I thought my policy started on the day of?


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