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Can this be appealed?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:02 pm 
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Hi all,

I haven't spent a whole ton of time on this site, but from what I have read here, this may seem a little odd. Just the same, here goes...

I took my "G" license road test last week and failed. The examiner explained the reason I failed was because I made a right-hand turn at an intersection where a solid red light AND a left-turn green arrow were both showing. I thought she was kidding, since, from what I've been told, right turns at red lights are perfectly legal as long as there's nothing posted saying otherwise and as long as you stop first and make sure the way is clear before proceeding. She assured me that she wasn't kidding and that she could show me, in the drivers' handbook, where it mentions this very thing. I didn't bother getting her to show it to me; at that point, I was just seriously ticked about having wasted $75 for no good reason.

After getting home, I looked up the handbook on-line and read through the section on traffic lights only to find that it doesn't say anything in there about not turning right at a set of lights like the ones where I failed my test. The only mention of those lights in the book talks about what you CAN do when you come upon an intersection showing that particular set of lights.

I had to do a fair bit of digging around the web before I found this site and, through it, the relevant parts of the HTA. Judging from that and what I've read here, I guess I was at fault.

I'm wondering if, based on the fact that the only information we're given to "study" for the road test (the drivers' handbook) fails to mention this stupid law, I'd have any hope of successfully appealing the test failure. That is, if appealing it is even an option.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Oh, while I'm thinking of it, if I'd pulled up to the same intersection and no one was in the left-turning lane on "my" side of the road, the left-turn arrow facing me wouldn't have been on; in that case, my right-turn would have been perfectly allowable, correct?


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Re: Can this be appealed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:25 pm 
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The whole of the HTA is available to anyone with internet access from home or a library. There's nothing that says you can only read the Driver's Handbook before a road test.

If the left-turn arrow is not on, you can turn right on a red after coming to a stop and determining the turn can be made in safety. When a green arrow indication is shown, you may proceed only in the direction indicated by the arrow.

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Re: Can this be appealed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:55 pm 
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I'm not aware of any appeal process for licence testing. I suppose if you had failed due to an error on the part of the tester (i.e. saying you can't go through a green light) they may allow a retest, but it doesn't sound like that was the case. I agree that the combination green arrow/red light is not a law that many people are familiar with and not greatly enforced. Unfortunately, as Squishy says, you're responsible for familiarizing yourself with all highway traffic laws. The handbooks are designed to be an easier to understand summary of the major ones, but not a comprehensive guide. Unfortunately you'll probably just have to consider this a crummy way to learn a new law and wait for a retest.

Just out of curiosity, did you take any kind of driver's ed class? Mine was almost 20 years ago now, but I remember the instructor drilling this particular law into our heads, saying it was one that testers caught a few students off guard with. Curious if it's still commonly taught today.


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Re: Can this be appealed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:02 pm 
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Thanks for the responses, folks. I didn't think an appeal was likely, but figured it didn't hurt to ask.

I didn't take any kind of driver's ed class, but my niece, who did, said that she had been informed of this.

I spoke with the DriveTest people this afternoon & clarified the last question in my original post with them; If the left-turn arrow facing me isn't on, I'm safe to make a right-hand turn, as you (Stanton) said. The complete lack of logic in that really just boggles the mind.

In any case, thanks again.


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Re: Can this be appealed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:26 pm 
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Quote:
The examiner explained the reason I failed was because I made a right-hand turn at an intersection where a solid red light AND a left-turn green arrow were both showing.


Is the left-turn green arrow facing incoming traffic? So that means you cannot turn right if incoming cars have the left-green arrow?


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Re: Can this be appealed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:31 pm 
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Pot8ohead wrote:
If the left-turn arrow facing me isn't on, I'm safe to make a right-hand turn, as you (Stanton) said. The complete lack of logic in that really just boggles the mind..


I believe the logic is that most times (not all) when the left arrow is on, the traffic on the opposite side also has a left turn arrow. Those approaching vehicles turn left.....where the person at the red light if turning would enter the path of the other vehicle turning.

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Re: Can this be appealed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:08 pm 
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I know alot of people are not aware of this law. Im always correcting my friends when driving with them, only to have them look at me with utter disgust and told to shut up lol..

I would say Don't worry about it too much and just rebook your G test...btw I failed my G2 3 times! before I finally passed, but I did pass my G on the first attempt ;)

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Re: Can this be appealed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:22 pm 
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Diehard: The left-turn arrow was facing my side of the intersection. Actually, it would have been facing the other side as well, though I couldn't see that one, of course.

Hwybear: At this particular intersection, the road we were turning onto was 5 lanes wide (2 in each direction, plus a turning lane in the middle), so anyone turning left from the other side of the intersection should have been turning into the left lane anyway, whereas I turned into the right (curb) lane. I do understand what you're saying, though, and wouldn't have made the turn if there was only one lane to turn into.

What I mean by mentioning the lack of logic was that by my being allowed to make my turn if the left-turn arrow wasn't on for traffic on my side of the intersection, the only thing that would have changed was that vehicles that may have been turning and traveling in the exact opposite direction I was going wouldn't have been there. I'd have been fine making my right-hand turn at the same time oncoming traffic was making left-hand turns. There's just no sense in that at all; any safety concerns would remain the same.

Admin: You're right; not a lot of people know about this one. I think maybe 10% of the people I've talked to about this knew it wasn't legal. It certainly isn't enforced strictly around here (Sault Ste. Marie). This was my first attempt at getting my G. I'm really kicking myself for not having gotten it years & years ago, before the graduated licensing system was put in place. The worst part about it isn't having to start over from the very beginning (although that sucks a lot too), it's having to shell out another $200 to do it.


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Re: Can this be appealed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:52 pm 
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I think this law is more to allow arrow indications to be used for controlling the direction of traffic, such as at a highway off-ramp that might have left and right arrow indications but no forward arrow indication, or an intersection with no turns that might show only the forward arrow indication. Instead of having signs to prohibit each illegal turn, the omission of a green arrow indication in that direction can be used to prohibit it. Ideally, if the right turn can be made in safety (which, in your case, it would have been), there should be a right arrow indication lit with the left arrow. Unfortunately, intersections are rarely set up this way, partly because of liability in case an opposing left-turning vehicle takes a wide (illegal) turn and sideswipes a right-turning vehicle.

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Re: Can this be appealed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:04 pm 
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Pot8ohead wrote:
. It certainly isn't enforced strictly around here (Sault Ste. Marie)

What there is more than snowmobiles, atv's and boats up there ;)

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Re: Can this be appealed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:07 am 
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Well sure... we've got ATV's too ;)


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Re: Can this be appealed?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:11 am 
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Well. I realize this post was 4 years old but thank you for posting this!
I did this exact thing last night and someone honked at me. I was confused and thought I had done nothing wrong as I made sure the way was clear.
Thank you for the clarification :)


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