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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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trying to ask for additional disclosure what should i do?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:24 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:07 pm
Posts: 6
Hi, all

I need some advice in my situation. If you have experience, knowledge or similar situations you have encountered, feel free to leave it in the comments, i greatly appreciate them!

On Jan. 4th 2016, I got a ticket for going 139km/h on hwy 401. I was driving home with my friends to Ottawa from Toronto. So i got a ticket from the officer. He didnt tell me much, just told me to hand out the drivers license and issued me a ticket. I didnt say much either because it was my first time getting a speeding ticket. So i chose to fight the ticket. I did some research online knowing that i should contact the courthouse to get disclosure. So email them, and after a few months, i got an email back with the following files : the original ticket with correction of the time, an early resolution notice ( i am surprised about this, as i chose to go to trial and it says the date is in July and i never received it), the hand written notes from the police officer during that day ( i cant really read his writing, and i found that he wrote my name wrong on his notes), and also a statement of my driving history with my full name, birthdate and driver license number and such. I also got the manual for the LIDAR that the officer was using.

Before i got the disclosure, i wanted to fight the ticket by arguing that 1) the speed recorded with the LIDAR was not my speed as there was other cars around me at the time, 2) the LIDAR was not properly maintained, tested or used. With all the disclosure files i got from the courthouse, it doesnt seem sufficient to justify my points. and then i found this post on the forum topic7794.html. and I did the same thing to request additional documents related to my case. my sent them an email :

Hi,
Thank you for the information, i would like to request that you provide me with all relevant information so that i can prepare a defence, and make full answer, to the charge mentioned above. Without limiting this request, i specifically ask that you include:
1) A full copy of the notes of the Officer ( including both sides of his copy of the ticket:
typed as it is not legible
an explanation for the short forms in case they occur in the officer's notes;
2) A copy of the calibration and maintenance records of the speed-measuring device used;
3) A copy of the certification of the officer's training for use of the speed-measuring device used;
5) Any witness statements ( the ones who will testify and the ones who were interviewed but will not be called to testify)
Please inform me of any information that is not being disclosed, with an explanation for such.

and a few weeks later they replied:

Unfortunately all of the additional disclosure you are requesting is not something I can request from the Officer we receive to many requests for disclosure to have the officer type his/her notes from every charge laid.

The only options that you have for this request are;
1.) to have the officer read to you the notes that he/she has handwritten before you have your trial or;
2.) seek legal advice from a paralegal or lawyer who may be able to interpret the officers notes or;
3.) complete the Motion that has been attached above the Motion date would be February 8th at 1:00pm it is recommended that you or someone on your behalf be present for the Motion date to explain why you require the Officer to type his notes, at this time the Justice of the Peace will either grant or deny your Motion for typed disclosure.

all three options are not feasible in my situation, 1.) by having the officer read to me, i wont have time to prepare for the trial 2.) i wouldnt want to go through a lawyer because i dont have to the money. 3.) i can fill out the form to go through the process, but i am not sure how likely the JP will grant my Motion. plus Ottawa is 2 hour drive away from the courthouse.

So now, i would like your opinion, in my situation what more can i do to fight my case and which option should i choose if i have to ask for more disclosure. And on the other hand, since the procedure is more time consuming than i expected, and i am a busy student with part time job and personal stuff. Do I still have the option to talk to the prosecutor, and maybe just pay a lowered fine and just end this, i am just thinking this might be better off in my situation. Any contribution is appreciated thank you in advance.


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early resolution notice.jpg [ 228.74 KiB | Viewed 490 times ]
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Re: trying to ask for additional disclosure what should i do
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:32 pm
Posts: 29
ottfarmboy wrote:
Before i got the disclosure, i wanted to fight the ticket by arguing that 1) the speed recorded with the LIDAR was not my speed as there was other cars around me at the time,


Just a quick note, this defence won't likely fly as LIDAR has a very narrow beam. This is in contrast to RADAR where the beam is very wide and it can be difficult to tell which vehicle is returning the speed reading (if there are multiple vehicles in the area)


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Re: trying to ask for additional disclosure what should i do
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1654
Yes it appears to be a Laser/Lidar device. These have a sight that the officer looks thru and will target usually the license plate of the vehicle. They can not get a reliable reading if there are vehicles in the way or passing thru the beam though and they are more prone to error when handheld as opposed to being on a stand.

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+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


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Re: trying to ask for additional disclosure what should i do
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:53 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:09 am
Posts: 108
It would be interesting to know when the officer corrected the time on the Certificate of Offence and in his notes. Officers typically testify in Court that they made their notes "shortly after" issuing the ticket (that tends to mean as soon as the officer returns to the car or to the patrol post). If he messed up the time on the ticket and in his notes, he'd better be able to explain why the time was wrong in the first place, what caused him to realize he'd made the mistake, when he'd made it and when he corrected it. Depending on that information, he may have "opened the door" to question him on his observation skills, recording skills, etc.


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Re: trying to ask for additional disclosure what should i do
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:21 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
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Did the officer correct the time on the Certificate of Offence, or did the Prosecutor change the time, or did you?

Can you scan and post your copy of the ticket? The officer is not allowed to change anything on the certificate of offence after giving you your copy of the ticket (Notice of Offence).

If you did not correct the time, then you need to view the ORIGINAL certificate of offence to see if it was corrected by officer. If the correction was not made on the original then there is no issue, as the prosecutor probably made that note. But if the correction IS made on the original and is NOT made on your copy, then you have a fatal error. So definitley check into this.

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Re: trying to ask for additional disclosure what should i do
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:25 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:07 pm
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jsherk wrote:
Did the officer correct the time on the Certificate of Offence, or did the Prosecutor change the time, or did you?

Can you scan and post your copy of the ticket? The officer is not allowed to change anything on the certificate of offence after giving you your copy of the ticket (Notice of Offence).

If you did not correct the time, then you need to view the ORIGINAL certificate of offence to see if it was corrected by officer. If the correction was not made on the original then there is no issue, as the prosecutor probably made that note. But if the correction IS made on the original and is NOT made on your copy, then you have a fatal error. So definitley check into this.


I dont have the original copy of the ticket, i mailed it out to express that i am choosing the third option which is going for a trial. the ticket copied i posted here is the court officer sent to me through email. i am not sure if its the prosecutor changed the time or the police officer.


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Re: trying to ask for additional disclosure what should i do
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:27 am 
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Zatota wrote:
It would be interesting to know when the officer corrected the time on the Certificate of Offence and in his notes. Officers typically testify in Court that they made their notes "shortly after" issuing the ticket (that tends to mean as soon as the officer returns to the car or to the patrol post). If he messed up the time on the ticket and in his notes, he'd better be able to explain why the time was wrong in the first place, what caused him to realize he'd made the mistake, when he'd made it and when he corrected it. Depending on that information, he may have "opened the door" to question him on his observation skills, recording skills, etc.


that is what i thought too. i just dont know how to approach this for questioning in the court. i have never been to the court. Not sure how i can challenge the officer on that.


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Re: trying to ask for additional disclosure what should i do
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:45 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:30 am
Posts: 711
It's always a good idea to visit the court on a day prior to your trial just so you can see how it proceeds.

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Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


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Re: trying to ask for additional disclosure what should i do
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:36 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1654
What you can do is go to the Provincial Offences Office on a day before your trial and ask then for:
- a copy of the origincal Certificate of Offence, and
- a copy of both sides of the Notice of Offence that you filed.

If the change is on BOTH then there is no issue for you to be concerned about.

If the change is ONLY on the Notice of Offence (your copy of ticket) then there could an issue.

If you can not get to the office before trial day, then on the day of trial, you can go up to the Clerk of the Court (before court starts) who is sitting in the court right in front of the judges bench with a computer and ask them if you can review the Certificate of Offence and the Notice of Offence.

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Re: trying to ask for additional disclosure what should i do
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:35 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:07 pm
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jsherk wrote:
What you can do is go to the Provincial Offences Office on a day before your trial and ask then for:
- a copy of the origincal Certificate of Offence, and
- a copy of both sides of the Notice of Offence that you filed.

If the change is on BOTH then there is no issue for you to be concerned about.

If the change is ONLY on the Notice of Offence (your copy of ticket) then there could an issue.

If you can not get to the office before trial day, then on the day of trial, you can go up to the Clerk of the Court (before court starts) who is sitting in the court right in front of the judges bench with a computer and ask them if you can review the Certificate of Offence and the Notice of Offence.


what is the issue, if i go before the court start, and i see that the change is only on the notice of offence, what should i do ? and are they obligated to show me that or they can refuse to show me ? thanks for you replies


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Re: trying to ask for additional disclosure what should i do
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:26 pm
Posts: 60
Location: Markham
Check out a recent post here: http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/courts-and-procedure/cops-can-fix-small-errors-tickets-after-issuing-them-t7933.html

A recent decision by the Court of Appeal has found that minor errors, such as the time, would not cause a defendant to be misled. And any minor variance between the officer's copy of the certificate of offence and your copy of the offence notice (ticket), such as a correction in the time, also would not cause a defendant to be misled.

So I don't think it's possible to argue anymore that this is an error that requires the ticket to be quashed, unless you can say that you have been misled or prejudiced as a result of this error.


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Re: trying to ask for additional disclosure what should i do
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:27 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:07 pm
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I have been getting so busy in my life recently that i dont have time to prepare the case. weighing the goods and the bads, i would rather spend more time on my other stuff than fighting the ticket, do anyone know, Could i still choose other options, for example like paying the fine, or stalk to prosecutor even after i have got my court date? Or do i have to show up in court date in this case now? thank you for all the replies i appreciate all of them


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Re: trying to ask for additional disclosure what should i do
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1654
Yes you can just go and pay the fine anytime you want and it is all over.

But I would suggest you show up to the court date though, and just ask the prosecutor if they will drop it to 15 over and that you will plead guilty to that. They may not agree to 15 over but might agree to 20 or 25 over. This will not help your insurance but will help reduce the initial fine which would be better than paying full price. In order to get the ticket reduced, you must show up for the trial date as it can not be done any other time or way.

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Re: trying to ask for additional disclosure what should i do
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:00 pm
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Generally this type of offence is resolvable and it would be a shame to simply accept a conviction at the rate of speed on the ticket. A 15 over would be very unlikely. Perhaps a generic signage charge or a 29+.

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The content of this post is not legal advice. Legal advice can only be provided after a licenced paralegal has been retained, spoken with you directly, and reviewed the documents related to your case.


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Re: trying to ask for additional disclosure what should i do
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:47 pm 
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jsherk wrote:
Yes you can just go and pay the fine anytime you want and it is all over.

But I would suggest you show up to the court date though, and just ask the prosecutor if they will drop it to 15 over and that you will plead guilty to that. They may not agree to 15 over but might agree to 20 or 25 over. This will not help your insurance but will help reduce the initial fine which would be better than paying full price. In order to get the ticket reduced, you must show up for the trial date as it can not be done any other time or way.


So i will get to speak to the prosecutor before the trial on court date ? or i ask for a drop on the trial ? is there a way to find out if the police officer is attending, if hes absent i the case should be closed ? how do i find out if the officer is coming. thank you


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