hi all, just got in the mail a red light camera offense notice. what ticked me is that i was making a right turn. i must admit that i did a rolling stop and also at the same time there were cars making left turn (so it was safe to turn right since the road was clear). do i have a case if i fight this one on court? i did not go through the intersection, i made a right turn, which in my opinion was safe. also, can i take this at any POA office? the notice says that i take this to Markham Road office. I work in downtown so it would be convinient for me to go to the Peter St location. TIA, rbee
hi all,
just got in the mail a red light camera offense notice. what ticked me is that i was making a right turn.
i must admit that i did a rolling stop and also at the same time there were cars making left turn (so it was safe to turn right since the road was clear).
do i have a case if i fight this one on court? i did not go through the intersection, i made a right turn, which in my opinion was safe.
also, can i take this at any POA office? the notice says that i take this to Markham Road office. I work in downtown so it would be convinient for me to go to the Peter St location.
Couple of things about your ticket. As it was a red light camera offence, there will not be any demerit points and your insurance rates will not be affected if you pay, as you are being charged as the vehicle owner. Did they have a green arrow to turn left? If so, this was posted under a discussion on "improper right turn": That may have triggered it. Also, a rolling stop counts as not stopping; admitting that in court is admitting guilt. I can't say for sure but I think you'll have to go to the Markham Road office. The reason being that the Peter St. location probably won't have the information on your charge.
Couple of things about your ticket. As it was a red light camera offence, there will not be any demerit points and your insurance rates will not be affected if you pay, as you are being charged as the vehicle owner.
rbee wrote:
there were cars making left turn
Did they have a green arrow to turn left? If so, this was posted under a discussion on "improper right turn":
hwybear wrote:
Just a side note related but not to this particular situation.
If stopped at a red light, and then a green arrow appears to turn left....no motor vehicle can make a turn to the right while the red is showing.
Just and FYI
That may have triggered it. Also, a rolling stop counts as not stopping; admitting that in court is admitting guilt.
rbee wrote:
also, can i take this at any POA office? the notice says that i take this to Markham Road office.
I can't say for sure but I think you'll have to go to the Markham Road office. The reason being that the Peter St. location probably won't have the information on your charge.
there was no green light, the light turned amber (that's when the other cars started turning left) and then red. the picture also clearly show my right turn signal was on. yes, it clearly states on the ticket that there will be no demerit points but the fine is $180!!! that's alot of coins! i'm hoping that if i prove that i did not go through the intersection on red, the charges (or fine) will be dropped.
there was no green light, the light turned amber (that's when the other cars started turning left) and then red.
the picture also clearly show my right turn signal was on.
yes, it clearly states on the ticket that there will be no demerit points but the fine is $180!!! that's alot of coins!
i'm hoping that if i prove that i did not go through the intersection on red, the charges (or fine) will be dropped.
What probably happened is one of the cars that was turning left tripped the red light camera. This is what I would do: Take the photographs that were provided to you, and take a note of sections 144 - 18 and 144 - 19 of the Highway Traffic Act. 144 - 19 is the part that allows you to turn right on a red. It may be helpful to photograph the intersection, as well. They are not supposed to install sensors for the red-light camera on the roadway in the rightmost lane; this is so cars turning right do not activate the camera. The sensor beds have some black tar "caulking" around them forming a rectangle in each lane, and they're paved over. They're basically metal detectors. If the rightmost lane is completely smooth, no rectangular tar outlines, take the photograph of it with a time-date stamp. Also photograph the intersection showing that there are no signs indicating that a turn on red is prohibited. Take the photographs they provided, your photograph and your copy of section 144 - 18 and 144 - 19. Go to court, state that you approached the intersection, you signalled for a turn to the right, checked the intersection, noted the light was changing, and proceeded in safety to make a right turn, as permitted in accordance with section 144 - 19 of the Highway Traffic Act. Also show the photograph of where the sensor beds are and that should prove that your vehicle could not have activated the camera. (Don't mention the "rolling stop" part.) As such, request that the charge be dismissed, as they sent the ticket to the wrong vehicle owner. That would be my strategy anyway...
What probably happened is one of the cars that was turning left tripped the red light camera. This is what I would do:
Take the photographs that were provided to you, and take a note of sections 144 - 18 and 144 - 19 of the Highway Traffic Act. 144 - 19 is the part that allows you to turn right on a red. It may be helpful to photograph the intersection, as well. They are not supposed to install sensors for the red-light camera on the roadway in the rightmost lane; this is so cars turning right do not activate the camera. The sensor beds have some black tar "caulking" around them forming a rectangle in each lane, and they're paved over. They're basically metal detectors. If the rightmost lane is completely smooth, no rectangular tar outlines, take the photograph of it with a time-date stamp. Also photograph the intersection showing that there are no signs indicating that a turn on red is prohibited.
Take the photographs they provided, your photograph and your copy of section 144 - 18 and 144 - 19. Go to court, state that you approached the intersection, you signalled for a turn to the right, checked the intersection, noted the light was changing, and proceeded in safety to make a right turn, as permitted in accordance with section 144 - 19 of the Highway Traffic Act. Also show the photograph of where the sensor beds are and that should prove that your vehicle could not have activated the camera. (Don't mention the "rolling stop" part.) As such, request that the charge be dismissed, as they sent the ticket to the wrong vehicle owner.
Excellent post RI! Man, looking at your graphic gets me tired! A couple of things to add, you can take the ticket to any POA office in Ontario. They'll photocopy your ticket and then stamp it and give it back to you. If possible, can you post a photo of your ticket here (blanking out the personal details)? I'm interested in the fine amount box at the bottom of the ticket to see if it's completed correctly. Request disclosure specifically asking for a copy of the original photographs, a clear indicator of the timing of the photographs and the speed of your vehicle. Also ask for a clear picture of the superimposed numbers. Ask for evidence that the camera was working properly (maintenance logs, etc.) And ask for the operator's manual for the camera so that you can better understand how it works. If you don't get any of this, you can apply for a stay based on improper disclosure. Also if the speed of your vehicle is slow, it's an indicator that you stopped and began to turn. If the speed is too fast, it may be an indicator that the sensor was picking up another vehicle (which might be in the picture!) The important lesson here is that the photographs paint only one side of the story. There's another side that you will bring out at trial.
Excellent post RI! Man, looking at your graphic gets me tired!
A couple of things to add, you can take the ticket to any POA office in Ontario. They'll photocopy your ticket and then stamp it and give it back to you. If possible, can you post a photo of your ticket here (blanking out the personal details)? I'm interested in the fine amount box at the bottom of the ticket to see if it's completed correctly.
Request disclosure specifically asking for a copy of the original photographs, a clear indicator of the timing of the photographs and the speed of your vehicle. Also ask for a clear picture of the superimposed numbers.
Ask for evidence that the camera was working properly (maintenance logs, etc.) And ask for the operator's manual for the camera so that you can better understand how it works.
If you don't get any of this, you can apply for a stay based on improper disclosure.
Also if the speed of your vehicle is slow, it's an indicator that you stopped and began to turn. If the speed is too fast, it may be an indicator that the sensor was picking up another vehicle (which might be in the picture!)
The important lesson here is that the photographs paint only one side of the story. There's another side that you will bring out at trial.
Last edited by ticketcombat on Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks, hopefully it proves useful! Also, would like to mention that your website provided the foundation for that post. Good to know. Will note that for future reference. rbee, I think you've got an excellent chance of beating this.
ticketcombat wrote:
Excellent post RI!
Thanks, hopefully it proves useful! Also, would like to mention that your website provided the foundation for that post.
ticketcombat wrote:
A couple of things to add, you can take the ticket to any POA office in Ontario.
Good to know. Will note that for future reference. rbee, I think you've got an excellent chance of beating this.
i can see the black tar caulking on the picture in my red light camera ticket, they are visible. so, how do i prove to them that sensor is not supposed to be on the right side? is there a document that i can show them that this sensor is placed incorrectly?
Radar Identified wrote:
They are not supposed to install sensors for the red-light camera on the roadway in the rightmost lane; this is so cars turning right do not activate the camera. The sensor beds have some black tar "caulking" around them forming a rectangle in each lane, and they're paved over. They're basically metal detectors.
i can see the black tar caulking on the picture in my red light camera ticket, they are visible. so, how do i prove to them that sensor is not supposed to be on the right side? is there a document that i can show them that this sensor is placed incorrectly?
i have only seen the tar in all lanes, this is for the vehicle electromagnetics/weight and trigger a red light to turn green. Rather than sit there for hours on end if no other traffic is in the area.
i have only seen the tar in all lanes, this is for the vehicle electromagnetics/weight and trigger a red light to turn green. Rather than sit there for hours on end if no other traffic is in the area.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
i understand that they put sensors on streets that have less traffic so it will only trigger the light when there is a car waiting... but this is a major intersection so i would think that sensors are there for the purpose of red light camera. am i correct in my assumption???
i understand that they put sensors on streets that have less traffic so it will only trigger the light when there is a car waiting... but this is a major intersection so i would think that sensors are there for the purpose of red light camera.
Induction loops (rectangle wires buried in the road) are used along with sensors to detect movement, direction and speed. In a multi lane highway with dedicated left and right turn lanes the wires are not place there. Only in the through lanes. But on a two lane road, you'll likely cross a loop as you turn right.
Induction loops (rectangle wires buried in the road) are used along with sensors to detect movement, direction and speed. In a multi lane highway with dedicated left and right turn lanes the wires are not place there. Only in the through lanes. But on a two lane road, you'll likely cross a loop as you turn right.
Just to go back to rbee's original photograph... it did show that several vehicles were making a left turn as you turned right, correct? Can you tell if more than one vehicle turning left went through the red in that photograph?
Just to go back to rbee's original photograph... it did show that several vehicles were making a left turn as you turned right, correct? Can you tell if more than one vehicle turning left went through the red in that photograph?
there were 3 vehicles in the picture... so i would assume that two of them turned when light turned red... the first one probably turned when light was amber.
Radar Identified wrote:
Just to go back to rbee's original photograph... it did show that several vehicles were making a left turn as you turned right, correct? Can you tell if more than one vehicle turning left went through the red in that photograph?
there were 3 vehicles in the picture... so i would assume that two of them turned when light turned red... the first one probably turned when light was amber.
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