Hi, I just got a red light camera ticket (form 5) from Bronson/Carling intersection in Ottawa. I clearly remember that I was making a right turn and stop signals as well as the right turning signal are visible on the first picture. (I most likely did a rolling stop, but lets pretend I did not say that). The reason I remember this so well is because it was at night (2:49am) and I got blinded by the flash. Now on the second picture that is supposed to be showing me crossing the intersection shows absolutely empty intersection (it is night time though so it is actually extremely unclear) because by that time I already completed the right turn. Two questions: -Do I have enough evidence to have the ticket dismissed (I will try to post the scanned copy of the ticket a bit later)? -Is it possible to somehow fight it by mail? I now work in Montreal and there is no way I can come in to court during a week day.
Hi,
I just got a red light camera ticket (form 5) from Bronson/Carling intersection in Ottawa.
I clearly remember that I was making a right turn and stop signals as well as the right turning signal are visible on the first picture. (I most likely did a rolling stop, but lets pretend I did not say that). The reason I remember this so well is because it was at night (2:49am) and I got blinded by the flash.
Now on the second picture that is supposed to be showing me crossing the intersection shows absolutely empty intersection (it is night time though so it is actually extremely unclear) because by that time I already completed the right turn.
Two questions:
-Do I have enough evidence to have the ticket dismissed (I will try to post the scanned copy of the ticket a bit later)?
-Is it possible to somehow fight it by mail? I now work in Montreal and there is no way I can come in to court during a week day.
I guess I should have been a little bit more specific in my question: -Would arguing that I made a full stop, and then proceeded through an intersection making a right turn get me out of the ticket? Supporting this with a claim that the stop lights and turn signal are on? -Would the fact that my car is not even present on the second picture be enough by itself to dismiss the ticket? -How does mail-in trial work? Do I have to call somewhere to arrange that? There is no information on the ticket about that. By the way the ticket is here: http://i769.photobucket.com/albums/xx33 ... 010886.jpg I appreciate all comments and advice.
I guess I should have been a little bit more specific in my question:
-Would arguing that I made a full stop, and then proceeded through an intersection making a right turn get me out of the ticket? Supporting this with a claim that the stop lights and turn signal are on?
-Would the fact that my car is not even present on the second picture be enough by itself to dismiss the ticket?
-How does mail-in trial work? Do I have to call somewhere to arrange that? There is no information on the ticket about that.
If this goes to trial, you don't need to take the stand to lie that you made a full stop (perjury is a serious offence). The burden of proof is on the prosecutor to prove the charge, you will cross examine the witness and/or poke holes into the prosecutor arguments to create doubt or to prove there was not enough evidence to warrant the charge in your case as your car is not seen in the second picture. There are cases in the red light ticket section of this forum that may give you more info. Good luck
If this goes to trial, you don't need to take the stand to lie that you made a full stop (perjury is a serious offence). The burden of proof is on the prosecutor to prove the charge, you will cross examine the witness and/or poke holes into the prosecutor arguments to create doubt or to prove there was not enough evidence to warrant the charge in your case as your car is not seen in the second picture.
There are cases in the red light ticket section of this forum that may give you more info. Good luck
So, basically, you completed a turn in 1.5 seconds. You might argue that you did stop for a split second and then proceeded to make the right turn. But I am fairly certain your car needs to be in that second picture.
So, basically, you completed a turn in 1.5 seconds. You might argue that you did stop for a split second and then proceeded to make the right turn. But I am fairly certain your car needs to be in that second picture.
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"
As for mail-in submission, I think you need to download Form 18A. Seems the closest one to description. For the forms, visit: http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic1551.html
As for mail-in submission, I think you need to download Form 18A. Seems the closest one to description.
I got exactly the same sort of ticket at the same intersection. The car is in my wife's name can I represent her in court? What is the procedure to do this?
I got exactly the same sort of ticket at the same intersection. The car is in my wife's name can I represent her in court? What is the procedure to do this?
Red light camera tickets should not be fought the traditional way. You will lose in trial. Why? Well there is a Picture of YOU going through the red light! :P It might be better to just try to get a plea bargain and get your fine reduced.
Red light camera tickets should not be fought the traditional way. You will lose in trial. Why? Well there is a Picture of YOU going through the red light!
It might be better to just try to get a plea bargain and get your fine reduced.
I called the court and Yes, anybody can represent you at the trial, the ticket is given to your car, not to you. But I think I am just going to pay it. The camera only triggers if you are going through the intersection faster then 25km/hr, the prosecution will just simply argue that I did not make a full stop before turning right. (that is what I was told) I'd rather pay $180 then waste half of my day on going to court.
I called the court and Yes, anybody can represent you at the trial, the ticket is given to your car, not to you. But I think I am just going to pay it. The camera only triggers if you are going through the intersection faster then 25km/hr, the prosecution will just simply argue that I did not make a full stop before turning right. (that is what I was told) I'd rather pay $180 then waste half of my day on going to court.
but in this case, the driver made a right turn... are you saying that you will still lose if you use this argument?
but in this case, the driver made a right turn... are you saying that you will still lose if you use this argument?
admin wrote:
Red light camera tickets should not be fought the traditional way. You will lose in trial. Why? Well there is a Picture of YOU going through the red light!
It might be better to just try to get a plea bargain and get your fine reduced.
you must come to a complete stop even making a right on a red. the HTA doesnt state a time frame for how long you must stop. it could be for a millionth of a nanosecond or three seconds, 5 seconds, 5 years whatever. fight it. why give the province or city any more money. its worth a shot.
you must come to a complete stop even making a right on a red. the HTA doesnt state a time frame for how long you must stop. it could be for a millionth of a nanosecond or three seconds, 5 seconds, 5 years whatever.
fight it. why give the province or city any more money. its worth a shot.
Do split atoms for living cuz that is some accurate right there......
Off_Camber wrote:
you must come to a complete stop even making a right on a red. the HTA doesnt state a time frame for how long you must stop. it could be for a millionth of a nanosecond or three seconds, 5 seconds, 5 years whatever.
fight it. why give the province or city any more money. its worth a shot.
Do split atoms for living cuz that is some accurate right there......
http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com
I received a similar ticket at that intersection of Bronson Avenue and Carling Avenue. I will be fighting this ticket and it appears that they have made my argument for me. The ticket states I approached the intersection after the light had been red for 4.6 seconds, and proceeded through the intersection when the light had been red for 6.3 seconds. So, where was i for the difference of 1.7 seconds, i was stopped. The same as you, my car is not in the second picture either.
I received a similar ticket at that intersection of Bronson Avenue and Carling Avenue. I will be fighting this ticket and it appears that they have made my argument for me. The ticket states I approached the intersection after the light had been red for 4.6 seconds, and proceeded through the intersection when the light had been red for 6.3 seconds. So, where was i for the difference of 1.7 seconds, i was stopped. The same as you, my car is not in the second picture either.
Don't think it matters. The camera's and the technology used are well aware of right turns. So if you made a rolling stop then well you didn't stop and that is considered running a red light. If you do take this to trial please keep us updated.
rbee wrote:
but in this case, the driver made a right turn... are you saying that you will still lose if you use this argument?
admin wrote:
Red light camera tickets should not be fought the traditional way. You will lose in trial. Why? Well there is a Picture of YOU going through the red light!
It might be better to just try to get a plea bargain and get your fine reduced.
Don't think it matters. The camera's and the technology used are well aware of right turns. So if you made a rolling stop then well you didn't stop and that is considered running a red light.
If you do take this to trial please keep us updated.
I think it might mean that you crossed the first line at 4.6 seconds then you crossed the second line at 6.3 seconds. The 1.7 seconds is what took you to completely clear the intersection.
katteve wrote:
I received a similar ticket at that intersection of Bronson Avenue and Carling Avenue. I will be fighting this ticket and it appears that they have made my argument for me. The ticket states I approached the intersection after the light had been red for 4.6 seconds, and proceeded through the intersection when the light had been red for 6.3 seconds. So, where was i for the difference of 1.7 seconds, i was stopped. The same as you, my car is not in the second picture either.
I think it might mean that you crossed the first line at 4.6 seconds then you crossed the second line at 6.3 seconds. The 1.7 seconds is what took you to completely clear the intersection.
I have just received a similar notice. What I don't quite understand is how this proves I have done anything contrary to the HTA. It seems that the first picture shows my vehicle stopped, behind the stop line, with brake lights on, and my turn signal illuminated. My vehicle is not visible in the second picture. The times listed are 0.9 seconds and 2.4 seconds. Are they saying that I could not have come to a complete stop, and then cleared the intersection in 1.5 seconds? Am I missing something here? Is there something in the first picture that shows I have not stopped? Link to scan of the offence notice (click on image to enlarge): http://picpaste.com/redlight.jpg
I have just received a similar notice. What I don't quite understand is how this proves I have done anything contrary to the HTA.
It seems that the first picture shows my vehicle stopped, behind the stop line, with brake lights on, and my turn signal illuminated.
My vehicle is not visible in the second picture.
The times listed are 0.9 seconds and 2.4 seconds. Are they saying that I could not have come to a complete stop, and then cleared the intersection in 1.5 seconds?
Am I missing something here? Is there something in the first picture that shows I have not stopped?
Link to scan of the offence notice (click on image to enlarge):
I don't see break lights! But still the photo's prove nothing, you could have stopped before the picture was taken, crawled over the line to see around the other vehicle then gone. That is perfectly legal in Ontario.
MartinBrice wrote:
I have just received a similar notice. What I don't quite understand is how this proves I have done anything contrary to the HTA.
It seems that the first picture shows my vehicle stopped, behind the stop line, with brake lights on, and my turn signal illuminated.
My vehicle is not visible in the second picture.
The times listed are 0.9 seconds and 2.4 seconds. Are they saying that I could not have come to a complete stop, and then cleared the intersection in 1.5 seconds?
Am I missing something here? Is there something in the first picture that shows I have not stopped?
Link to scan of the offence notice (click on image to enlarge):
I don't see break lights! But still the photo's prove nothing, you could have stopped before the picture was taken, crawled over the line to see around the other vehicle then gone. That is perfectly legal in Ontario.
http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com
Thanks for the response. I guess it is a bit hard to see in the scan, but in the hard copy I have, you can tell that the two rear brake lights, as well as the third light that is in the rear window is illuminated.
Thanks for the response. I guess it is a bit hard to see in the scan, but in the hard copy I have, you can tell that the two rear brake lights, as well as the third light that is in the rear window is illuminated.
You have to be in the 2nd picture I believe for them to prove without reasonable doubt that you crossed the intersection. Ofcourse people who issues the ticket will say don't fight it, just pay it. Red light cameras are composed of 3 parts, the camera, the triggers (sensors) and the computer that controls both. Before you approach the line is where you'll see the sensors, it will trigger if you don't stop above the sensor. If you stop before you reach the sensor and then proceeded & then made the right turn, it will be triggered & take your picture. That is not a violation. People just want to make money. Red light cameras are really only effective if you beat the red light & they show your car in the middle of the road on the second picture while the red light is visible. That without a doubt is a violation. Check the link below on Red Light Cameras: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-drivi ... camera.htm
You have to be in the 2nd picture I believe for them to prove without reasonable doubt that you crossed the intersection. Ofcourse people who issues the ticket will say don't fight it, just pay it. Red light cameras are composed of 3 parts, the camera, the triggers (sensors) and the computer that controls both. Before you approach the line is where you'll see the sensors, it will trigger if you don't stop above the sensor. If you stop before you reach the sensor and then proceeded & then made the right turn, it will be triggered & take your picture. That is not a violation. People just want to make money. Red light cameras are really only effective if you beat the red light & they show your car in the middle of the road on the second picture while the red light is visible. That without a doubt is a violation. Check the link below on Red Light Cameras:
New year Everyone I received a "Red Light Camera System Offense Notice" on last Friday 30/12/2011 ($325.00 too) which shows 2 pictures of my car proceeding thru the intersection. The first 1st pic shows my car at the white line before the crosswalk when the light turned red for 2.4 secs and second picture shows my car was gone at 4 secs. The speed shown for my car on the notice was 27 kmp .The speed limit was 60. I have never received a ticket before, I'm a very conservative and conscious driver for over 23 years, the location was DonMills turn east on Finch. I remember I stopped to check no on-going traffic before proceed. The notice quotes sub-section quoted is 144 (18.1) and mentions that the camera is certified to be in working order when the pictures was taken. The fine is $ 325.00 was out of my lead because I am unemployed and on ODSP. Can you please please advise what should I do, plea for a reduce fine (but how?) or fight it?? You advise are much appreciated. Many Thanks, YK (ykng1968@gmail.com)
New year Everyone
I received a "Red Light Camera System Offense Notice" on last Friday 30/12/2011 ($325.00 too) which shows 2 pictures of my car proceeding thru the intersection. The first 1st pic shows my car at the white line before the crosswalk when the light turned red for 2.4 secs and second picture shows my car was gone at 4 secs. The speed shown for my car on the notice was 27 kmp .The speed limit was 60. I have never received a ticket before, I'm a very conservative and conscious driver for over 23 years, the location was DonMills turn east on Finch. I remember I stopped to check no on-going traffic before proceed.
The notice quotes sub-section quoted is 144 (18.1) and mentions that the camera is certified to be in working order when the pictures was taken. The fine is $ 325.00 was out of my lead because I am unemployed and on ODSP. Can you please please advise what should I do, plea for a reduce fine (but how?) or fight it??
I will be going to trial for my red light camera offence.
I'll be arguing two issues, centered on the fact that there are two essential elements of 144(18) - a) a vehicle approaching the intersection shall stop; and b) the vehicle shall not proceed until green. Both essential elements must be contravened beyond a reasonable doubt to be an offence.
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