Hi, I just received a notice in the mail with pictures of my car going through a red light. Ticket is in my husband's name, as he is the car owner, but I drive this car. I'm guilty as can be... can't remember doing it, but apparently went right through intersection after light turned red. I realize there are no demerit points with this ticket, but ticket is for $180!!!

2 questions: Do you think there is any way the prosecutor would let me "plead down" to a lesser fine, even though it's clear in the pictures I'm guilty as sin??

Does it make any sense that it's my husband being ticketed although it wasn't him driving??

Thank you for your responses!

Naomi

Naomi,

The red light camea ticket goes after the vehicle plate owner. It doesn't matter who was driving at the time. The ticket is one of the more complicated tickets to fight. It also is one of the easiest to plead guilty to. It carries no demerit points, it does not affect your insurance and if you request a trial (option 3), go to court and then offer to plead guilty, the fine is usually halved, around $60 - $75 plus victim surcharge and costs.

There are a couple of technical points you should be aware of. The ticket you received has recently changed and some jurisdictions are still issuing the wrong version. In other words, the ticket could be invalid. Also the fine amount just recently changed. If the fine on your ticket is incorrect, that would also invalidate the ticket. This depends on the date of your offence.

There are other arguments based on your speed, duration of the amber, disclosure requests, etc. (It gets complicated!)

If you want to fight the ticket, then please scan it and post it here, blocking out your personal information and licence plate. We can examine it and tell you if it's valid.

Otherwise, a negotiation with the prosecutor will get you a 50% discount.

TC

Thanks so much for the info! I will get my scanner working and scan it. Otherwise, if it's valid, i will definitely attend and plead.

I've scanned the notice/ticket as a pdf, but don't understand how to post it. Can you explain how to post it? Otherwise I can send it as an email...

naomi wrote:

I've scanned the notice/ticket as a pdf, but don't understand how to post it. Can you explain how to post it? Otherwise I can send it as an email...

open an account at http://www.photobucket.com and then upload it there.

Just remember to remove your personal information.....you can use "paint" or other programs

thanks, Reflections, for explaining how to upload.

I've uploaded the offence notice as a JPEG on photobucket.

The direct link: http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww51 ... camera.jpg

The HTML code: <a><img></a>

Let me know if you can't view it... this is my first time doing such a thing. I'm not very computer savy!!

The views are good. I have no further comment.

Naomi, your ticket is invalid. The ticket you have is called a "notice of offence" and it is covered by Regulation 950 of the Provincial Offences Act.

Hopefully this won't be too confusing. There are two different forms. Form 5 is for jurisdictions where you can request a trial by mail. Form 5.1 is for jurisdictions where you must attend in person to request a trial. You have form 5.1 because in Peel you must go to the court house to request a trial.

On January 1, 2009 the ticket (Form 5 and 5.1) changed. They have to stop using the old ticket and start issuing the new version of the ticket. To get a better understanding of this, the July 28, 2008 version of the Regulation shows both the old and new tickets. Just scroll down to see both versions. It gave all the cities 6 months notice to get their act together by Jan 1, 2009. Peel didn't. You have been given the old version instead of the new version.

The difference between the old and new version is the "total payable" box in the bottom centre of the page. It's different and allows for more information about the set fine.

The second change is in the wording of the options on page 2. For example, Option 2 used to read "plead guilty with an explanation", now it reads "plea of guilty - submissions as to penalty". These are not trivial changes. They are significant as to communicate to the defendant the nature of the charge and the options you have available.

Peel Region has been using the wrong ticket since the beginning of the year. Basically every red light camera ticket they issue is invalid. I am currently in court trying to get a ruling but it's been deferred to August. But that shouldn't stop you from making the same argument.

TC

Wow, no kidding...

But would such an argument be enough to throw out the charge?? Or would they just "re-issue" me a new ticket?

Are you saying that when my trial day comes instead of trying to "plea bargain" down to a lesser fine, I should fight it entirely based on the fact that it's the wrong ticket issued?

Is there somewhere online I can download more info on the change? Does the ohta website have anything on this ticket? I tried looking through their website, but didn't see anything.

Thanks again for all your help!!

Naomi

oops, I just noticed your link to canlii and looking over that now... thank you!!

this is excellent! i have the same ticket as naomi (the old one)

see my original post http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic992.html

i already have a court date set in november.... in my defense i will first argue that i was making a right turn and did not go through the red light. if that doesnt work, then i will argue that they sent me the outdated ticket.

Ague the invalid ticket first before pleading. The right turn argument can be made during trial. Was your ticket in Peel as well?

Hi,

I have been following these boards closely as I too have been issued with a red light camera offence notice. Unfortunately, the city of Mississauga issued me a court date in mid-Sept when I went to request a trial (no unreasonable delay there!). I also received the same form (5.1) as Naomi did and will be utilizing that defence prior to pleading.

However, I found an interesting ruling from the COURT OF APPEAL FOR ONTARIO regarding the admissibility of the photograph(s) as evidence (Waterloo (Regional Municipality) v. Yan, 2004 CanLII 32076 (ON C.A.)) which may assist some. The important sections of the ruling are 26-31. Essentially, the court ruled that the photograph "must" display the date, time and location of the offence either within the photograph itself or superimposed on it. The use of alpha-numeric values, without any means to interpret them, are not sufficient (32).

Looking at your photo naomi, it seems that while the date and time are listed on the top of the photo, the location is not (at least not intelligibly by a common person). There are also no street signs indicating the location of the offence (photo is a bit grainy so I may be wrong). Hence, the photo of your offence is inadmissibly (as the location of the photo cannot be sufficiently established) meaning there no longer is any evidence against you.

Personally, this ruling may not apply to me as one of the street signs is visible in the photographs of my offence (Airport Rd). So the photo places me at one street but not the other. I don't know if this appeals court ruling can work for me, but it will be part of a defence I mount.

Hope this was of some help. Best of luck.

Bee

ticketcombat wrote:

Ague the invalid ticket first before pleading. The right turn argument can be made during trial. Was your ticket in Peel as well?

my ticket was in scarborough or city of toronto.

I got a ticket too and it happens to be invalid (old version)!, Interesting.

In my case was a friend who was driving my car. Is there any chance I can plead guilty (Option 2) and get a lesser fine?.

My record is clean, this is the first ticket I got and now I know the ticket is invalid.

Is it for sure that this kind of ticket is not going to affect my insurance?

Thanks.!