Have been busy and haven't had much time to follow up on this... Went to court having not received disclosure (and was not organized enough to apply for a stay), so the trial was adjourned. They photocopied the officer's ticket and notes and provided a log sheet from the plane. I've sent another request for the rest of the disclosure items. So here's my question -- can an officer amend the ticket after he provides me with a copy? My version is all typed with an "X" in the Witness "No" box and no Code (blank). His photocopied version adds a handwritten "X" in the Witness "Yes" box with a badge number above and an "A" in the Code box. The badge number is likely from the officer in the plane. Is this legit or can I get off on a technicality?
Have been busy and haven't had much time to follow up on this...
Went to court having not received disclosure (and was not organized enough to apply for a stay), so the trial was adjourned. They photocopied the officer's ticket and notes and provided a log sheet from the plane. I've sent another request for the rest of the disclosure items.
So here's my question -- can an officer amend the ticket after he provides me with a copy? My version is all typed with an "X" in the Witness "No" box and no Code (blank). His photocopied version adds a handwritten "X" in the Witness "Yes" box with a badge number above and an "A" in the Code box. The badge number is likely from the officer in the plane.
Hate to reply to myself, but I managed to find a smilar incident in CanLii. http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/20 ... 13711.html The error was in the date of the ticket, and the officer corrected the original before filing with the court (after giving an unchanged copy to the driver). The ticket was quashed and the appeal was denied. Question remains -- does this quash apply to all such alterations before trial or just this specific flaw?
Hate to reply to myself, but I managed to find a smilar incident in CanLii.
The error was in the date of the ticket, and the officer corrected the original before filing with the court (after giving an unchanged copy to the driver). The ticket was quashed and the appeal was denied.
Question remains -- does this quash apply to all such alterations before trial or just this specific flaw?
You can try that argument. I think there's a good chance it will work. If no amendment had been made by the officer, then it could be corrected by the court. If the officer amends the ticket before filing, well, you can cite the ruling in the case you quoted, and argue that the ticket must be quashed. Have some backup defences in case that doesn't work, though.
pch2004 wrote:
Question remains -- does this quash apply to all such alterations before trial or just this specific flaw?
You can try that argument. I think there's a good chance it will work. If no amendment had been made by the officer, then it could be corrected by the court. If the officer amends the ticket before filing, well, you can cite the ruling in the case you quoted, and argue that the ticket must be quashed. Have some backup defences in case that doesn't work, though.
Has anyone used (or heard of using) this defense? And can a JP deny the motion in spite of the case law? I'm no lawyer, so arguing the legality of amending a notice outside of court worries me a bit, but it seems like a valid argument based on the above decision.
Has anyone used (or heard of using) this defense? And can a JP deny the motion in spite of the case law?
I'm no lawyer, so arguing the legality of amending a notice outside of court worries me a bit, but it seems like a valid argument based on the above decision.
Within that case law, there is another case that the decision was based on.... "In R. v. Wilson, [2001] O.J. No. 4907 at para. 21 Livingstone J. held that "regular on its face" means that the certificate must set out the person commencing the process, the person charged, the statute name and section number, where and when the allegations arose and what the result of a conviction would be." In the case "R. v. Pawar", the date was missing on the defendants copy, which was one of the items required for "regular on its face". Would look at all this in the totality, does the offence notice you received meet the "regular on its face" items?
pch2004 wrote:
Hate to reply to myself, but I managed to find a smilar incident in CanLii.
The error was in the date of the ticket, and the officer corrected the original before filing with the court (after giving an unchanged copy to the driver). The ticket was quashed and the appeal was denied.
Question remains -- does this quash apply to all such alterations before trial or just this specific flaw?
Within that case law, there is another case that the decision was based on....
"In R. v. Wilson, [2001] O.J. No. 4907 at para. 21 Livingstone J. held that "regular on its face" means that the certificate must set out the person commencing the process, the person charged, the statute name and section number, where and when the allegations arose and what the result of a conviction would be."
In the case "R. v. Pawar", the date was missing on the defendants copy, which was one of the items required for "regular on its face".
Would look at all this in the totality, does the offence notice you received meet the "regular on its face" items?
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Appreciate the input hwybear...always nice to get a different perspective. Can I ask -- have you ever modified a ticket after issuing it to the driver? Or, more importantly, have you ever been told that it was OK to do so?
Appreciate the input hwybear...always nice to get a different perspective.
Can I ask -- have you ever modified a ticket after issuing it to the driver? Or, more importantly, have you ever been told that it was OK to do so?
Can you ask? You just did :wink: Right from when I first started, my coach told me to never alter the face once the copy was given to the driver. If there is an error, it is better to make a notation in my notebook or back of ticket (officer notes area). This leads to being more credible should it go to court. Yes, I made an error, but this is what it was. The prosecutor can then decide to ammend the offence notice before the JP or withdraw the offence for more serious things. If I look at the offence notice and it is really a huge error (ie: wrote wrong section for charge, wrong short form wording), I will then modify the ticket with a great big "X" in the code box, voiding the ticket. The ticket is then filed. Should the person pay the ticket, the money is returned as the ticket has been "voided". This is another reason I like to sign the top copy of the ticket and not the carbon copy that is issued to the driver. I check the face, I am satisfied and then sign it, pull it apart and serve (all copies are identical). The other way, pull apart, sign the drivers copy and serve to driver, only to come back sign the top copy noticing a check box error and check it (no malicious intent). But either way of signing is accepted. Other arguement is my method has no original signature on the drivers copy, but merely a carbon copy signature....however my method ensures all copies are identical (including the signature)
pch2004 wrote:
Can I ask -- have you ever modified a ticket after issuing it to the driver? Or, more importantly, have you ever been told that it was OK to do so?
Can you ask? You just did
Right from when I first started, my coach told me to never alter the face once the copy was given to the driver.
If there is an error, it is better to make a notation in my notebook or back of ticket (officer notes area). This leads to being more credible should it go to court. Yes, I made an error, but this is what it was. The prosecutor can then decide to ammend the offence notice before the JP or withdraw the offence for more serious things.
If I look at the offence notice and it is really a huge error (ie: wrote wrong section for charge, wrong short form wording), I will then modify the ticket with a great big "X" in the code box, voiding the ticket. The ticket is then filed. Should the person pay the ticket, the money is returned as the ticket has been "voided".
This is another reason I like to sign the top copy of the ticket and not the carbon copy that is issued to the driver. I check the face, I am satisfied and then sign it, pull it apart and serve (all copies are identical). The other way, pull apart, sign the drivers copy and serve to driver, only to come back sign the top copy noticing a check box error and check it (no malicious intent). But either way of signing is accepted. Other arguement is my method has no original signature on the drivers copy, but merely a carbon copy signature....however my method ensures all copies are identical (including the signature)
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
pch2004: I didn't see this addressed in this discussion so I'll just state it (if it's not obvious). There are two separate arguments to make. First (as per paragraph 41 of your case citation) the amendment invalidated the certificate of offence. You will argue the certificate had been improperly amended outside of court in violation of Ont. Reg. 200 s. 15 and is no longer a valid certificate, but is in fact a nullity. Second, and this is a separate argument should you lose the one above, you will argue that the court should not amend the certficate under s.34 (POA), because it would prejudice you. Basically he gave you a ticket that stated there were no witnesses. You decided to fight the ticket because there were no witnesses! Now you find out that there are witnesses. This is unfair and affected the decision you made. You came to court ready to argue and SURPRISE there's evidence that you were mislead about. It is unacceptable. Good luck and good fight!
pch2004: I didn't see this addressed in this discussion so I'll just state it (if it's not obvious). There are two separate arguments to make.
First (as per paragraph 41 of your case citation) the amendment invalidated the certificate of offence. You will argue the certificate had been improperly amended outside of court in violation of Ont. Reg. 200 s. 15 and is no longer a valid certificate, but is in fact a nullity.
Second, and this is a separate argument should you lose the one above, you will argue that the court should not amend the certficate under s.34 (POA), because it would prejudice you.
Basically he gave you a ticket that stated there were no witnesses. You decided to fight the ticket because there were no witnesses! Now you find out that there are witnesses. This is unfair and affected the decision you made. You came to court ready to argue and SURPRISE there's evidence that you were mislead about. It is unacceptable.
Thanks to all for the comments. Hwybear -- seems like the case law supports your method (since the amendment is made in court). Personally, I like the idea of a big X in the code box for ALL tickets :lol: Ticketcombat -- thanks for spelling it out. I wouldn't have thought of the second argument. A couple of quick questions -- from reading your site, it doesn't appear that I need to file paperwork for a motion to quash, correct? (just bring it up at arraignment and provide copies of the case) Also, it appears that I won't be getting a response to my "missing items" disclosure requests and so will file for a stay. Do you think it would be better to argue for the quash or the stay first?
Thanks to all for the comments. Hwybear -- seems like the case law supports your method (since the amendment is made in court). Personally, I like the idea of a big X in the code box for ALL tickets
Ticketcombat -- thanks for spelling it out. I wouldn't have thought of the second argument. A couple of quick questions -- from reading your site, it doesn't appear that I need to file paperwork for a motion to quash, correct? (just bring it up at arraignment and provide copies of the case) Also, it appears that I won't be getting a response to my "missing items" disclosure requests and so will file for a stay. Do you think it would be better to argue for the quash or the stay first?
Wow...I hate court... Drove 1.5 hrs to file my stay application yesterday...had my 4F and affidavit prepared. Went to the desk and clerk swore my affidavit. Told her I need to go serve the prosecutor...she says his office is over there, but he's not there. You can make an appointment or try on Monday but no guarantees. He has no secretary and sets his own schedule...so for now, it's just a locked door. So I ask who receives paperwork for him when he's away. Clerk says that they do. So I ask if I can leave prosecutor's copy with her. She says yes and I leave 2 copies of 4F and sworn affidavit. She stamped my copy with the "Filed -- Provincial Offences Court" stamp. My question -- normally I would have two stamps on each document (proving that the prosecutor was served). Is my application still valid? Or should I also fax to the prosecutor's office to prove that he has been served? I'll fax to the AG offices once I sort this out.
Wow...I hate court...
Drove 1.5 hrs to file my stay application yesterday...had my 4F and affidavit prepared. Went to the desk and clerk swore my affidavit. Told her I need to go serve the prosecutor...she says his office is over there, but he's not there. You can make an appointment or try on Monday but no guarantees. He has no secretary and sets his own schedule...so for now, it's just a locked door.
So I ask who receives paperwork for him when he's away. Clerk says that they do. So I ask if I can leave prosecutor's copy with her. She says yes and I leave 2 copies of 4F and sworn affidavit. She stamped my copy with the "Filed -- Provincial Offences Court" stamp.
My question -- normally I would have two stamps on each document (proving that the prosecutor was served). Is my application still valid? Or should I also fax to the prosecutor's office to prove that he has been served? I'll fax to the AG offices once I sort this out.
For anyone who was following this... I prepared myself for court and had arguments for both quashing the ticket and staying the charge for non-disclosure. As it turns out, one of the officers didn't show...almost anticlimactic, but I'll take it. I managed to listen to a full trial of the evidence for the aerial surveillance program, so if anyone is interested, I can lend some advice as to the testimony of the officers. Thanks to all for the help...this board is a GREAT resource, as are the regulars who post here.
For anyone who was following this...
I prepared myself for court and had arguments for both quashing the ticket and staying the charge for non-disclosure. As it turns out, one of the officers didn't show...almost anticlimactic, but I'll take it.
I managed to listen to a full trial of the evidence for the aerial surveillance program, so if anyone is interested, I can lend some advice as to the testimony of the officers.
Thanks to all for the help...this board is a GREAT resource, as are the regulars who post here.
We all follow ALL cases that go through here. At least I do. These cases let us know about what had worked for YOU, and then we can draw same lines in similar cases.
We all follow ALL cases that go through here. At least I do. These cases let us know about what had worked for YOU, and then we can draw same lines in similar cases.
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"
I managed to listen to a full trial of the evidence for the aerial surveillance program, so if anyone is interested, I can lend some advice as to the testimony of the officers.
I managed to listen to a full trial of the evidence for the aerial surveillance program, so if anyone is interested, I can lend some advice as to the testimony of the officers.
Thanks to all for the help...this board is a GREAT resource, as are the regulars who post here.
Hi, I am new to the forum. I have been trying to get information off of here and www.ticketcombat.com for my case.
I was given a ticket for going 122km/h in a posted 100km/h zone at Hwy 401 east at Thickson Rd in Whitby ON on April 10th, 2009.
I find this absolutely absurd, since I was in the left most lane of the 401 approximately(within 5km/h) following the speed of traffic in my lane. The guy in…
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On Wednesday I attended court at 1530 Markham Road, courtroom E2, in order to fight my speeding ticket. My original plan was to plead not guilty, and to watch all the people who went before me, the process, the Prosecutor and the Justice Of The Peace so I could strategize and form the best plan for my defence at trial. I had done some research online and sort of knew I wanted to defend myself,…
About 5 months ago I was driving along a two-way road approaching an intersection. The road had a left/ straight turning lane and a right turning lane. There was an 18 wheel gravel truck occupying the left lane at a red light. I pulled behind the truck intending to drive straight. After not moving for about 1 second, I check my rear view mirror, signaled and changed lanes to the right…
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I've been researching for months for defence strategy and basic trial information regarding my speeding ticket. However, the information is so conflicting that I have no confidence whatsoever that I know what I'm doing.
I didn't get this info from a friend of a friend, it came from this website, court officials, case laws, and a consultation with a traffic ticket fighting company.
So I was driving east bound pulling an empty tandem trailer on a gravel highway. Eventually I caught up to a truck pulling a fifth wheel. The speed limit was 70km/h and I don't quite remember but I'm almost 100% that the guy in front of me was driving at 60km/h. After being behind him for a few kilometers and getting two cracks in my windshield from rocks off his tires, I decided to pass him. I…
I have been driving for over 10 years without any tickets and accidents what so ever. Unfortunately my luck ran out this past Friday; when the officer pulled me over doing 80 in a 50 zone in Mississauga, Ontario. Officer was very friendly and polite not to mention nice enough to reduce the charge to 15KM.
On the speeding ticket it now says doing 65km in a 50 zone. Never having a speeding…
hi everyone im just wondering if its right for a cop to have my car impounded and give me a traffic ticket for improper plates when my car didnt leave my property, yes i knew the plates werent to my car but on private property it dont matter aslong as it dosent go onto public property. am i right with this that i shouldnt have gotten the ticket or my car impounded?????????????
Have been busy and haven't had much time to follow up on this...
Went to court having not received disclosure (and was not organized enough to apply for a stay), so the trial was adjourned. They photocopied the officer's ticket and notes and provided a log sheet from the plane. I've sent another request for the rest of the disclosure items.
So here's my question -- can an officer amend the ticket…
Hi guys, I got pulled over last night and was ticketed with HTA 172, I was going 157 on a 100 on 400N and was wondering what I should do. I was using cruise control but the guy in the lane to my left was driving into my lane irresponsibly to I sped up to get ahead of him and just my luck that's when an OPP cruiser pulled up behind me flashing his lights. My court date is at the end of the month…
If anyone can answer this I would greatly appreciate it.
Friday morning I checked my mail and received a letter from the MTO stating that under section 47(1) of the HTA the Registrar of Motor Vehicles has decided to suspend my driving privilege for medical reasons. This was due to a report submitted by a physician in compliance with section 203 of the HTA. Enclosed with that letter were forms to…
Ok so looking for some advice in regards to my wife's speeding ticket 120k in 100 (I was in vehicle so witnessed most - but was resting at initial clock.)
whats the likelihood of positive outcome of an 11b (or an officer no show, which I suspect doesn't really happen as much as web/Ads would have you believe) of 8months.
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I know I shouldn't have driving but I slept at my buddies' place and I thought I was ok to drive in the morning.. needless to say I still drove and got pulled over.
Background details:
I was pulled over in the morning last week, apparently going 120 km/hr on 90km Northbound DVP. Two cop cars tailed me for a bit, saw them in my rearview mirror while on the left lane, slowed down to…
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I'm wondering if anyone could enlighten me on what to do about the following scenario:
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Prosecutor: No, we are going to adjourn the trial so the officer can attend
Accident happened at a regular intersection with turning lanes and lights. I was turning left. The light turned yellow, and the car approaching sped up to make the light. I thought he was stopping, so i made the turn. At the time of the collision the light was red.
I understand that it is my fault. I'm just wondering what my best course of action is.
alright well to get started ive developed a passion for longboarding
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My court date is nearing at old city hall at appeals court.
iwhats going to happen and what do i do?
do I present my certificate of offence and point out to the judge the fine was incorrect, I did not appear and am now appealing on the grounds the Justice of the peace erred and failed to quash the ticket on the basis of the certificate not being properly examined and is not complete and regular on…
