Have been busy and haven't had much time to follow up on this... Went to court having not received disclosure (and was not organized enough to apply for a stay), so the trial was adjourned. They photocopied the officer's ticket and notes and provided a log sheet from the plane. I've sent another request for the rest of the disclosure items. So here's my question -- can an officer amend the ticket after he provides me with a copy? My version is all typed with an "X" in the Witness "No" box and no Code (blank). His photocopied version adds a handwritten "X" in the Witness "Yes" box with a badge number above and an "A" in the Code box. The badge number is likely from the officer in the plane. Is this legit or can I get off on a technicality?
Have been busy and haven't had much time to follow up on this...
Went to court having not received disclosure (and was not organized enough to apply for a stay), so the trial was adjourned. They photocopied the officer's ticket and notes and provided a log sheet from the plane. I've sent another request for the rest of the disclosure items.
So here's my question -- can an officer amend the ticket after he provides me with a copy? My version is all typed with an "X" in the Witness "No" box and no Code (blank). His photocopied version adds a handwritten "X" in the Witness "Yes" box with a badge number above and an "A" in the Code box. The badge number is likely from the officer in the plane.
Hate to reply to myself, but I managed to find a smilar incident in CanLii. http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/20 ... 13711.html The error was in the date of the ticket, and the officer corrected the original before filing with the court (after giving an unchanged copy to the driver). The ticket was quashed and the appeal was denied. Question remains -- does this quash apply to all such alterations before trial or just this specific flaw?
Hate to reply to myself, but I managed to find a smilar incident in CanLii.
The error was in the date of the ticket, and the officer corrected the original before filing with the court (after giving an unchanged copy to the driver). The ticket was quashed and the appeal was denied.
Question remains -- does this quash apply to all such alterations before trial or just this specific flaw?
You can try that argument. I think there's a good chance it will work. If no amendment had been made by the officer, then it could be corrected by the court. If the officer amends the ticket before filing, well, you can cite the ruling in the case you quoted, and argue that the ticket must be quashed. Have some backup defences in case that doesn't work, though.
pch2004 wrote:
Question remains -- does this quash apply to all such alterations before trial or just this specific flaw?
You can try that argument. I think there's a good chance it will work. If no amendment had been made by the officer, then it could be corrected by the court. If the officer amends the ticket before filing, well, you can cite the ruling in the case you quoted, and argue that the ticket must be quashed. Have some backup defences in case that doesn't work, though.
Has anyone used (or heard of using) this defense? And can a JP deny the motion in spite of the case law? I'm no lawyer, so arguing the legality of amending a notice outside of court worries me a bit, but it seems like a valid argument based on the above decision.
Has anyone used (or heard of using) this defense? And can a JP deny the motion in spite of the case law?
I'm no lawyer, so arguing the legality of amending a notice outside of court worries me a bit, but it seems like a valid argument based on the above decision.
Within that case law, there is another case that the decision was based on.... "In R. v. Wilson, [2001] O.J. No. 4907 at para. 21 Livingstone J. held that "regular on its face" means that the certificate must set out the person commencing the process, the person charged, the statute name and section number, where and when the allegations arose and what the result of a conviction would be." In the case "R. v. Pawar", the date was missing on the defendants copy, which was one of the items required for "regular on its face". Would look at all this in the totality, does the offence notice you received meet the "regular on its face" items?
pch2004 wrote:
Hate to reply to myself, but I managed to find a smilar incident in CanLii.
The error was in the date of the ticket, and the officer corrected the original before filing with the court (after giving an unchanged copy to the driver). The ticket was quashed and the appeal was denied.
Question remains -- does this quash apply to all such alterations before trial or just this specific flaw?
Within that case law, there is another case that the decision was based on....
"In R. v. Wilson, [2001] O.J. No. 4907 at para. 21 Livingstone J. held that "regular on its face" means that the certificate must set out the person commencing the process, the person charged, the statute name and section number, where and when the allegations arose and what the result of a conviction would be."
In the case "R. v. Pawar", the date was missing on the defendants copy, which was one of the items required for "regular on its face".
Would look at all this in the totality, does the offence notice you received meet the "regular on its face" items?
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Appreciate the input hwybear...always nice to get a different perspective. Can I ask -- have you ever modified a ticket after issuing it to the driver? Or, more importantly, have you ever been told that it was OK to do so?
Appreciate the input hwybear...always nice to get a different perspective.
Can I ask -- have you ever modified a ticket after issuing it to the driver? Or, more importantly, have you ever been told that it was OK to do so?
Can you ask? You just did :wink: Right from when I first started, my coach told me to never alter the face once the copy was given to the driver. If there is an error, it is better to make a notation in my notebook or back of ticket (officer notes area). This leads to being more credible should it go to court. Yes, I made an error, but this is what it was. The prosecutor can then decide to ammend the offence notice before the JP or withdraw the offence for more serious things. If I look at the offence notice and it is really a huge error (ie: wrote wrong section for charge, wrong short form wording), I will then modify the ticket with a great big "X" in the code box, voiding the ticket. The ticket is then filed. Should the person pay the ticket, the money is returned as the ticket has been "voided". This is another reason I like to sign the top copy of the ticket and not the carbon copy that is issued to the driver. I check the face, I am satisfied and then sign it, pull it apart and serve (all copies are identical). The other way, pull apart, sign the drivers copy and serve to driver, only to come back sign the top copy noticing a check box error and check it (no malicious intent). But either way of signing is accepted. Other arguement is my method has no original signature on the drivers copy, but merely a carbon copy signature....however my method ensures all copies are identical (including the signature)
pch2004 wrote:
Can I ask -- have you ever modified a ticket after issuing it to the driver? Or, more importantly, have you ever been told that it was OK to do so?
Can you ask? You just did
Right from when I first started, my coach told me to never alter the face once the copy was given to the driver.
If there is an error, it is better to make a notation in my notebook or back of ticket (officer notes area). This leads to being more credible should it go to court. Yes, I made an error, but this is what it was. The prosecutor can then decide to ammend the offence notice before the JP or withdraw the offence for more serious things.
If I look at the offence notice and it is really a huge error (ie: wrote wrong section for charge, wrong short form wording), I will then modify the ticket with a great big "X" in the code box, voiding the ticket. The ticket is then filed. Should the person pay the ticket, the money is returned as the ticket has been "voided".
This is another reason I like to sign the top copy of the ticket and not the carbon copy that is issued to the driver. I check the face, I am satisfied and then sign it, pull it apart and serve (all copies are identical). The other way, pull apart, sign the drivers copy and serve to driver, only to come back sign the top copy noticing a check box error and check it (no malicious intent). But either way of signing is accepted. Other arguement is my method has no original signature on the drivers copy, but merely a carbon copy signature....however my method ensures all copies are identical (including the signature)
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
pch2004: I didn't see this addressed in this discussion so I'll just state it (if it's not obvious). There are two separate arguments to make. First (as per paragraph 41 of your case citation) the amendment invalidated the certificate of offence. You will argue the certificate had been improperly amended outside of court in violation of Ont. Reg. 200 s. 15 and is no longer a valid certificate, but is in fact a nullity. Second, and this is a separate argument should you lose the one above, you will argue that the court should not amend the certficate under s.34 (POA), because it would prejudice you. Basically he gave you a ticket that stated there were no witnesses. You decided to fight the ticket because there were no witnesses! Now you find out that there are witnesses. This is unfair and affected the decision you made. You came to court ready to argue and SURPRISE there's evidence that you were mislead about. It is unacceptable. Good luck and good fight!
pch2004: I didn't see this addressed in this discussion so I'll just state it (if it's not obvious). There are two separate arguments to make.
First (as per paragraph 41 of your case citation) the amendment invalidated the certificate of offence. You will argue the certificate had been improperly amended outside of court in violation of Ont. Reg. 200 s. 15 and is no longer a valid certificate, but is in fact a nullity.
Second, and this is a separate argument should you lose the one above, you will argue that the court should not amend the certficate under s.34 (POA), because it would prejudice you.
Basically he gave you a ticket that stated there were no witnesses. You decided to fight the ticket because there were no witnesses! Now you find out that there are witnesses. This is unfair and affected the decision you made. You came to court ready to argue and SURPRISE there's evidence that you were mislead about. It is unacceptable.
Thanks to all for the comments. Hwybear -- seems like the case law supports your method (since the amendment is made in court). Personally, I like the idea of a big X in the code box for ALL tickets :lol: Ticketcombat -- thanks for spelling it out. I wouldn't have thought of the second argument. A couple of quick questions -- from reading your site, it doesn't appear that I need to file paperwork for a motion to quash, correct? (just bring it up at arraignment and provide copies of the case) Also, it appears that I won't be getting a response to my "missing items" disclosure requests and so will file for a stay. Do you think it would be better to argue for the quash or the stay first?
Thanks to all for the comments. Hwybear -- seems like the case law supports your method (since the amendment is made in court). Personally, I like the idea of a big X in the code box for ALL tickets
Ticketcombat -- thanks for spelling it out. I wouldn't have thought of the second argument. A couple of quick questions -- from reading your site, it doesn't appear that I need to file paperwork for a motion to quash, correct? (just bring it up at arraignment and provide copies of the case) Also, it appears that I won't be getting a response to my "missing items" disclosure requests and so will file for a stay. Do you think it would be better to argue for the quash or the stay first?
Wow...I hate court... Drove 1.5 hrs to file my stay application yesterday...had my 4F and affidavit prepared. Went to the desk and clerk swore my affidavit. Told her I need to go serve the prosecutor...she says his office is over there, but he's not there. You can make an appointment or try on Monday but no guarantees. He has no secretary and sets his own schedule...so for now, it's just a locked door. So I ask who receives paperwork for him when he's away. Clerk says that they do. So I ask if I can leave prosecutor's copy with her. She says yes and I leave 2 copies of 4F and sworn affidavit. She stamped my copy with the "Filed -- Provincial Offences Court" stamp. My question -- normally I would have two stamps on each document (proving that the prosecutor was served). Is my application still valid? Or should I also fax to the prosecutor's office to prove that he has been served? I'll fax to the AG offices once I sort this out.
Wow...I hate court...
Drove 1.5 hrs to file my stay application yesterday...had my 4F and affidavit prepared. Went to the desk and clerk swore my affidavit. Told her I need to go serve the prosecutor...she says his office is over there, but he's not there. You can make an appointment or try on Monday but no guarantees. He has no secretary and sets his own schedule...so for now, it's just a locked door.
So I ask who receives paperwork for him when he's away. Clerk says that they do. So I ask if I can leave prosecutor's copy with her. She says yes and I leave 2 copies of 4F and sworn affidavit. She stamped my copy with the "Filed -- Provincial Offences Court" stamp.
My question -- normally I would have two stamps on each document (proving that the prosecutor was served). Is my application still valid? Or should I also fax to the prosecutor's office to prove that he has been served? I'll fax to the AG offices once I sort this out.
For anyone who was following this... I prepared myself for court and had arguments for both quashing the ticket and staying the charge for non-disclosure. As it turns out, one of the officers didn't show...almost anticlimactic, but I'll take it. I managed to listen to a full trial of the evidence for the aerial surveillance program, so if anyone is interested, I can lend some advice as to the testimony of the officers. Thanks to all for the help...this board is a GREAT resource, as are the regulars who post here.
For anyone who was following this...
I prepared myself for court and had arguments for both quashing the ticket and staying the charge for non-disclosure. As it turns out, one of the officers didn't show...almost anticlimactic, but I'll take it.
I managed to listen to a full trial of the evidence for the aerial surveillance program, so if anyone is interested, I can lend some advice as to the testimony of the officers.
Thanks to all for the help...this board is a GREAT resource, as are the regulars who post here.
We all follow ALL cases that go through here. At least I do. These cases let us know about what had worked for YOU, and then we can draw same lines in similar cases.
We all follow ALL cases that go through here. At least I do. These cases let us know about what had worked for YOU, and then we can draw same lines in similar cases.
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"
I managed to listen to a full trial of the evidence for the aerial surveillance program, so if anyone is interested, I can lend some advice as to the testimony of the officers.
I managed to listen to a full trial of the evidence for the aerial surveillance program, so if anyone is interested, I can lend some advice as to the testimony of the officers.
Thanks to all for the help...this board is a GREAT resource, as are the regulars who post here.
Am really confused about this one, this morning i got a reduced speeding ticket (80km speed in 60 zone), and in the ticket the cop wrote 10km over the speeding limit.. and it has the 'R' code in it.. and the cop said i need to pay this and it doesn't have any points on it..
im fine with paying the ticket which is only 40 dollars but my biggest concern, will it show in my record ? or only tickets…
I got a ticket for driving with handheld device in Oct 2015 and I had requested for a trial. Yesterday I received the notice of trial (notice is dated 26-Jan-2017, court of trial is Newmarket, ON) and trial date is Mar 8, 2017. Today, I have sent in a registered request for disclosure (i.e on 29-Jan-2017).
Need some help here for the 1st time speeding ticket?
Sunday morning 12:10am when I was going home from work I was doing bit speeding on Gardiner. I was going with about 130km/h. I know its fast. I always take the same way and I know where the cops hide. They always hide entrance of the highways. If I will do speeding I always look my back and did look this time too. I took gardiner…
I just have a question in regards to the summons Under Part 1 I received for an rear end accident:
I was driving on the 2 lane road, and the car in front of me suddenly stopped, I had seen the car, and so I started to brake, however I heard noise from the back and looked int o the rear view mirror and saw a huge "truck" so I decided to go right, took the feet out of brakes but couldnt…
I have searched and I know the general rule is no, barring criminal charges or tresspassing. So let me use 2 specific issues I have.
1) I have some business in some area malls after hours. Once I have pulled into the mall lot on the way to the closest door I rarely stop at stop signs unless there is a car or person nearby. (i do not carelessly speed, i do show caution, just do not fully stop) Can…
In June at 401 London and Wellington I got hit twice, speeding which I didn't realize I was doing and cell phone. The Officer made me open my purse and show him my phone. I was going to meet a Rep of my Company in Kitchener, he called I answered. WRONG! The Officer wasn't even nice. My record was clean and he slapped me twice. I sat in the car and sobbed for 20 minutes as I was scared out of…
I wanted to "reply" elsewhere...but the more appropriate areas were "locked" to replies....so, here are a couple of questions...from a newbie to this site:
1. Who ARE you? (I'm a little edgy about conversing on a forum whose ownership is not stated anywhere on an "About" page") No offense intended whatsoever. Just like to know who I'm talking with/in front of.......your honor!
You are coming off of a highway exit and there are 3 lanes: right hand lane for right hand turn; middle lane for left AND right turn (but no straight thru since it is only a three-way intersection); and left lane for left hand turn. You are first in the middle lane, signalling to make a right.
CAN YOU make a right hand turn from the middle lane on a red if the traffic is clear?
Hey everyone first off I'd like to say great website, I have been reading and it is very useful
I'm posting today as I'd like to get some feedback on my situation and have a couple of questions. Please excuse the vagueness in some areas - I don't want my case to be identifiable given the small town.
So I was driving up north and was pulled over by an OPP SUV for doing 31 over. Cop drove past me,…
Hello! I'm under 16 currently and really want to drive. I know that section 37(1) says you have to be 16, but I've read that the HTA does not apply when you are in private property, so does that mean I can drive in a parking lot if I wanted to?
I was heading northbound on my bike downtown on friday. After the east/westbound lights went red and after a long pause I decided to get a head start and proceed before the light changed to green. About a block north of me an officer stepped out of an unmarked cruiser and pulled me over and gave me a $180 ticket. Now I see on this site that I should have been given points for it..but…
Got a ticket Saturday for insecure load. The officer was a real jerk and unfair. I had nothing hanging out the sides and the load wasn't that high. Just taking some junk to the dump. I was doing 40 on Ashley St in Foxboro, 4 ways on taking my time and nothing was going to fall out. I'm thinking about fighting it. Anyone experienced this before?
So I got convicted of a dui.. I have been riding my bike in the snow and taking the bus. I am a driving enthusiast and I will be going to the race track all summer but I NEED to drive something right now!
I have done lots of research and even an electric assisted bike that a 16 year old can drive legally on the road is not an option to someone with a dui suspension.
Hey this is my first ticket so as much information that people can provide will be appreciated. I was making the drive home going around 90kph(in a 80) behind what I knew was an undercover police car. The cop abruptly pulled to the side and pulled back in behind me to pull me over. Now I reduced my speed to below 80 when the cop pulled to the side but he claimed he had me clocked at 109kph and…
So I was heading home to today and I was in the left lane of the off ramp, some lady cut across her lane of traffic and across the off ramp median and hit the back side of my car! After a few meters of bumping (I was dazed and confused) I stopped the car.
I call 911 and was told to move the car to the shoulder.
Cop comes, interviews both of us, and lets the lady go! The cop proceeds to give…
An undercover cop, well not sure if he was even a cop to be honest, maybe a constable pulled me over after I passed him shortly after a construction zone. He asked me if I was in a rush and said that he was going 105 and I was going 120. It seems mostly from our conversation that he was pissed off that I passed him, because he never told me that I was speeding. None the less the ticket says…
I got this ticket last year in toronto and received court date recently.
Basically I parket on a street where there are marked spots for car parking but they were all faded with only the white edges showing. I assumed I was in the correct spot when I got out. I never noticed the fire hydrant in the bushes.
When I returned I saw the ticket and then noticed the fire hydrant and when I to the…
I would like to know if anybody could tell me what "V" stands for on the Code section of the Form 4. I think that it will be useful to understand what information is on this form in order to make a decision on what option we should chose.
I recently received a ticket for red light fail to stop under section 144 (18) of the Highway Traffic Act at the intersection of Dupont St. and Dufferin St. in Toronto with a set fine of $150 and total payable of $190. I think I entered the intersection on a yellow, however that is not the way the officer saw it. During the traffic stop the officer was polite bordering on friendly…
Got my first ticket last Thursday and I have a couple of questions. I was driving westbound on Moore St. (west of Bayview) and made a left onto a residential street at a 4-way stop sign. It was my first time driving through that area - was driving my girlfriend to a wisdom tooth surgery.
The police were set up to catch people, as that intersection had a no left turn sign from 7-9 am (buses…
