Have been busy and haven't had much time to follow up on this... Went to court having not received disclosure (and was not organized enough to apply for a stay), so the trial was adjourned. They photocopied the officer's ticket and notes and provided a log sheet from the plane. I've sent another request for the rest of the disclosure items. So here's my question -- can an officer amend the ticket after he provides me with a copy? My version is all typed with an "X" in the Witness "No" box and no Code (blank). His photocopied version adds a handwritten "X" in the Witness "Yes" box with a badge number above and an "A" in the Code box. The badge number is likely from the officer in the plane. Is this legit or can I get off on a technicality?
Have been busy and haven't had much time to follow up on this...
Went to court having not received disclosure (and was not organized enough to apply for a stay), so the trial was adjourned. They photocopied the officer's ticket and notes and provided a log sheet from the plane. I've sent another request for the rest of the disclosure items.
So here's my question -- can an officer amend the ticket after he provides me with a copy? My version is all typed with an "X" in the Witness "No" box and no Code (blank). His photocopied version adds a handwritten "X" in the Witness "Yes" box with a badge number above and an "A" in the Code box. The badge number is likely from the officer in the plane.
Hate to reply to myself, but I managed to find a smilar incident in CanLii. http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/20 ... 13711.html The error was in the date of the ticket, and the officer corrected the original before filing with the court (after giving an unchanged copy to the driver). The ticket was quashed and the appeal was denied. Question remains -- does this quash apply to all such alterations before trial or just this specific flaw?
Hate to reply to myself, but I managed to find a smilar incident in CanLii.
The error was in the date of the ticket, and the officer corrected the original before filing with the court (after giving an unchanged copy to the driver). The ticket was quashed and the appeal was denied.
Question remains -- does this quash apply to all such alterations before trial or just this specific flaw?
You can try that argument. I think there's a good chance it will work. If no amendment had been made by the officer, then it could be corrected by the court. If the officer amends the ticket before filing, well, you can cite the ruling in the case you quoted, and argue that the ticket must be quashed. Have some backup defences in case that doesn't work, though.
pch2004 wrote:
Question remains -- does this quash apply to all such alterations before trial or just this specific flaw?
You can try that argument. I think there's a good chance it will work. If no amendment had been made by the officer, then it could be corrected by the court. If the officer amends the ticket before filing, well, you can cite the ruling in the case you quoted, and argue that the ticket must be quashed. Have some backup defences in case that doesn't work, though.
Has anyone used (or heard of using) this defense? And can a JP deny the motion in spite of the case law? I'm no lawyer, so arguing the legality of amending a notice outside of court worries me a bit, but it seems like a valid argument based on the above decision.
Has anyone used (or heard of using) this defense? And can a JP deny the motion in spite of the case law?
I'm no lawyer, so arguing the legality of amending a notice outside of court worries me a bit, but it seems like a valid argument based on the above decision.
Within that case law, there is another case that the decision was based on.... "In R. v. Wilson, [2001] O.J. No. 4907 at para. 21 Livingstone J. held that "regular on its face" means that the certificate must set out the person commencing the process, the person charged, the statute name and section number, where and when the allegations arose and what the result of a conviction would be." In the case "R. v. Pawar", the date was missing on the defendants copy, which was one of the items required for "regular on its face". Would look at all this in the totality, does the offence notice you received meet the "regular on its face" items?
pch2004 wrote:
Hate to reply to myself, but I managed to find a smilar incident in CanLii.
The error was in the date of the ticket, and the officer corrected the original before filing with the court (after giving an unchanged copy to the driver). The ticket was quashed and the appeal was denied.
Question remains -- does this quash apply to all such alterations before trial or just this specific flaw?
Within that case law, there is another case that the decision was based on....
"In R. v. Wilson, [2001] O.J. No. 4907 at para. 21 Livingstone J. held that "regular on its face" means that the certificate must set out the person commencing the process, the person charged, the statute name and section number, where and when the allegations arose and what the result of a conviction would be."
In the case "R. v. Pawar", the date was missing on the defendants copy, which was one of the items required for "regular on its face".
Would look at all this in the totality, does the offence notice you received meet the "regular on its face" items?
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Appreciate the input hwybear...always nice to get a different perspective. Can I ask -- have you ever modified a ticket after issuing it to the driver? Or, more importantly, have you ever been told that it was OK to do so?
Appreciate the input hwybear...always nice to get a different perspective.
Can I ask -- have you ever modified a ticket after issuing it to the driver? Or, more importantly, have you ever been told that it was OK to do so?
Can you ask? You just did :wink: Right from when I first started, my coach told me to never alter the face once the copy was given to the driver. If there is an error, it is better to make a notation in my notebook or back of ticket (officer notes area). This leads to being more credible should it go to court. Yes, I made an error, but this is what it was. The prosecutor can then decide to ammend the offence notice before the JP or withdraw the offence for more serious things. If I look at the offence notice and it is really a huge error (ie: wrote wrong section for charge, wrong short form wording), I will then modify the ticket with a great big "X" in the code box, voiding the ticket. The ticket is then filed. Should the person pay the ticket, the money is returned as the ticket has been "voided". This is another reason I like to sign the top copy of the ticket and not the carbon copy that is issued to the driver. I check the face, I am satisfied and then sign it, pull it apart and serve (all copies are identical). The other way, pull apart, sign the drivers copy and serve to driver, only to come back sign the top copy noticing a check box error and check it (no malicious intent). But either way of signing is accepted. Other arguement is my method has no original signature on the drivers copy, but merely a carbon copy signature....however my method ensures all copies are identical (including the signature)
pch2004 wrote:
Can I ask -- have you ever modified a ticket after issuing it to the driver? Or, more importantly, have you ever been told that it was OK to do so?
Can you ask? You just did
Right from when I first started, my coach told me to never alter the face once the copy was given to the driver.
If there is an error, it is better to make a notation in my notebook or back of ticket (officer notes area). This leads to being more credible should it go to court. Yes, I made an error, but this is what it was. The prosecutor can then decide to ammend the offence notice before the JP or withdraw the offence for more serious things.
If I look at the offence notice and it is really a huge error (ie: wrote wrong section for charge, wrong short form wording), I will then modify the ticket with a great big "X" in the code box, voiding the ticket. The ticket is then filed. Should the person pay the ticket, the money is returned as the ticket has been "voided".
This is another reason I like to sign the top copy of the ticket and not the carbon copy that is issued to the driver. I check the face, I am satisfied and then sign it, pull it apart and serve (all copies are identical). The other way, pull apart, sign the drivers copy and serve to driver, only to come back sign the top copy noticing a check box error and check it (no malicious intent). But either way of signing is accepted. Other arguement is my method has no original signature on the drivers copy, but merely a carbon copy signature....however my method ensures all copies are identical (including the signature)
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
pch2004: I didn't see this addressed in this discussion so I'll just state it (if it's not obvious). There are two separate arguments to make. First (as per paragraph 41 of your case citation) the amendment invalidated the certificate of offence. You will argue the certificate had been improperly amended outside of court in violation of Ont. Reg. 200 s. 15 and is no longer a valid certificate, but is in fact a nullity. Second, and this is a separate argument should you lose the one above, you will argue that the court should not amend the certficate under s.34 (POA), because it would prejudice you. Basically he gave you a ticket that stated there were no witnesses. You decided to fight the ticket because there were no witnesses! Now you find out that there are witnesses. This is unfair and affected the decision you made. You came to court ready to argue and SURPRISE there's evidence that you were mislead about. It is unacceptable. Good luck and good fight!
pch2004: I didn't see this addressed in this discussion so I'll just state it (if it's not obvious). There are two separate arguments to make.
First (as per paragraph 41 of your case citation) the amendment invalidated the certificate of offence. You will argue the certificate had been improperly amended outside of court in violation of Ont. Reg. 200 s. 15 and is no longer a valid certificate, but is in fact a nullity.
Second, and this is a separate argument should you lose the one above, you will argue that the court should not amend the certficate under s.34 (POA), because it would prejudice you.
Basically he gave you a ticket that stated there were no witnesses. You decided to fight the ticket because there were no witnesses! Now you find out that there are witnesses. This is unfair and affected the decision you made. You came to court ready to argue and SURPRISE there's evidence that you were mislead about. It is unacceptable.
Thanks to all for the comments. Hwybear -- seems like the case law supports your method (since the amendment is made in court). Personally, I like the idea of a big X in the code box for ALL tickets :lol: Ticketcombat -- thanks for spelling it out. I wouldn't have thought of the second argument. A couple of quick questions -- from reading your site, it doesn't appear that I need to file paperwork for a motion to quash, correct? (just bring it up at arraignment and provide copies of the case) Also, it appears that I won't be getting a response to my "missing items" disclosure requests and so will file for a stay. Do you think it would be better to argue for the quash or the stay first?
Thanks to all for the comments. Hwybear -- seems like the case law supports your method (since the amendment is made in court). Personally, I like the idea of a big X in the code box for ALL tickets
Ticketcombat -- thanks for spelling it out. I wouldn't have thought of the second argument. A couple of quick questions -- from reading your site, it doesn't appear that I need to file paperwork for a motion to quash, correct? (just bring it up at arraignment and provide copies of the case) Also, it appears that I won't be getting a response to my "missing items" disclosure requests and so will file for a stay. Do you think it would be better to argue for the quash or the stay first?
Wow...I hate court... Drove 1.5 hrs to file my stay application yesterday...had my 4F and affidavit prepared. Went to the desk and clerk swore my affidavit. Told her I need to go serve the prosecutor...she says his office is over there, but he's not there. You can make an appointment or try on Monday but no guarantees. He has no secretary and sets his own schedule...so for now, it's just a locked door. So I ask who receives paperwork for him when he's away. Clerk says that they do. So I ask if I can leave prosecutor's copy with her. She says yes and I leave 2 copies of 4F and sworn affidavit. She stamped my copy with the "Filed -- Provincial Offences Court" stamp. My question -- normally I would have two stamps on each document (proving that the prosecutor was served). Is my application still valid? Or should I also fax to the prosecutor's office to prove that he has been served? I'll fax to the AG offices once I sort this out.
Wow...I hate court...
Drove 1.5 hrs to file my stay application yesterday...had my 4F and affidavit prepared. Went to the desk and clerk swore my affidavit. Told her I need to go serve the prosecutor...she says his office is over there, but he's not there. You can make an appointment or try on Monday but no guarantees. He has no secretary and sets his own schedule...so for now, it's just a locked door.
So I ask who receives paperwork for him when he's away. Clerk says that they do. So I ask if I can leave prosecutor's copy with her. She says yes and I leave 2 copies of 4F and sworn affidavit. She stamped my copy with the "Filed -- Provincial Offences Court" stamp.
My question -- normally I would have two stamps on each document (proving that the prosecutor was served). Is my application still valid? Or should I also fax to the prosecutor's office to prove that he has been served? I'll fax to the AG offices once I sort this out.
For anyone who was following this... I prepared myself for court and had arguments for both quashing the ticket and staying the charge for non-disclosure. As it turns out, one of the officers didn't show...almost anticlimactic, but I'll take it. I managed to listen to a full trial of the evidence for the aerial surveillance program, so if anyone is interested, I can lend some advice as to the testimony of the officers. Thanks to all for the help...this board is a GREAT resource, as are the regulars who post here.
For anyone who was following this...
I prepared myself for court and had arguments for both quashing the ticket and staying the charge for non-disclosure. As it turns out, one of the officers didn't show...almost anticlimactic, but I'll take it.
I managed to listen to a full trial of the evidence for the aerial surveillance program, so if anyone is interested, I can lend some advice as to the testimony of the officers.
Thanks to all for the help...this board is a GREAT resource, as are the regulars who post here.
We all follow ALL cases that go through here. At least I do. These cases let us know about what had worked for YOU, and then we can draw same lines in similar cases.
We all follow ALL cases that go through here. At least I do. These cases let us know about what had worked for YOU, and then we can draw same lines in similar cases.
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"
I managed to listen to a full trial of the evidence for the aerial surveillance program, so if anyone is interested, I can lend some advice as to the testimony of the officers.
I managed to listen to a full trial of the evidence for the aerial surveillance program, so if anyone is interested, I can lend some advice as to the testimony of the officers.
Thanks to all for the help...this board is a GREAT resource, as are the regulars who post here.
Hi so I have a bizzare situation. Today I received a summons for "being the owner of a motor vehicle bearing Vehicle Identification Number ###, failed to submit the vehicle, equipment or drawn vehicle for inspection or tests as required by an officer" for a vehicle I previously owned. Apparently a violation of HTA 82(9).
The date of offense is June 15, the summons was issued on October 26th and I…
Hi, I need some help for the ticket of lmproper left turn.
When i drove my car from east to west, intending to make a left turn and stop in front of stop line. There was a car in front of me, which has turn on yellow light. The light was turning red and then I thought I cannot leave in the intersection and turned, an incoming car was runing the light and hit me. No one got hurt but both cars had…
Have a ticket in which the radar used was a Genesis VP Directional. I had downloaded the manual for a Genesis VP but I now realize that the unit is not the same so it is the wrong manual. My trial is very soon so I do not have time to ask for disclosure of the manual.
Does anyone have access to an electronic version of the manual for Genesis VP Directional?
I was pulled over today in the city of Oakville for going 75 in a 40 zone. However, I am 100 percent certain that I was going only 50 in the 40 zone. When I was pulled over, I was driving my Dad's car which I felt was the reason I was getting stopped since two teenagers driving a 2013 S Class. He asked does I know why I am being pulled over and I…
I really need help on fighting my 9 tickets i received from one police officer. Here is some background of what happened!
I was caught speeding 66km on a 40km (school zone) on January 29, 2010. I was driving my friend's car and turns out she didnt renew the validation on the vehicle and didnt leave the up to date insurance paper on the car.
Hey question that I think here's probably the best place to get the answer:
I was charged with a careless driving offence in oct, trail in early april, so as of right now my insurance record is 100% clean... except the officer did file an accident report at the scene where I was classified at fault due to it being PI (although very minor). The person I hit did not sue etc, so the insurance company…
Very much unintentionally passed a stopped bus, with sign and flashing lights. Didn't realize I had done it until I was at the end of the bus. I'll save you my sob story, but it was truly accidental. I'm generally very cautious and have a perfect driving record. Never been stopped.
While I realize if a cop had seen me that I would have gotten a ticket, there were none in sight. Though I may very…
I was recently pulled over for running a red and I wasnt able to find my wallet in the car at the time to hand over my license. I had a passport in the vehicle that he used. The wallet was in the vehicle, it just fell through the seats. (Tough to find a black leather wallet in a black/black leather truck at night).
The officer still wrote the tickets for both he signed the one ticket (failure to…
I was passing a vehicle that was going slow for me and there was an oncoming vehicle coming at me. I speed up to get around the person I was passing and the oncoming vehicle turns out to be a cop who turns around and tickets me for going 110km in a 80km zone. How does it work with passing a vehicle? Once I passed the vehicle I went back down to my original speed of just under 100. The officer…
I picked up a brand new (old stock) Fuzzbuster a while ago at auction (wopping $5!!) and I want to mount it on the dash of my old GTO as a cool accessory when I show it at car shows. But I'm not sure if it's legal or not.
Here's my thoughts:
- It is early 70's technology (x-band) so it won't detect modern police radar. That's assuming no police force uses the old x-band frequency.
Hi guys, I'm still a little in shock of getting my first traffic ticket...
On Monday afternoon, I was returning from Toronto to Ottawa on HW416, I was driving about 15 over 100 like always. Then a car came very close to me on the left lane and made me nervous, I speed up unintentionally to pass the car and change lane, but while doing that a police car pull out of the median. He was hiding in…
May i ask this question regarding transport trucks limited to 105 km/h. Moving road blocks or safety?
IMO it isnt speed that kills. I find transport trucks infact help keep the road going. With cars that choose to not move to the right and slow down the middle lane the trucks would try to pass in their passing lane therefore the slower traffic would move right.
Received a notice from the police that a motion is being put forward to adjourn upcoming trial date. Notice indicates that an officer has sworn an affidavit that the crucial witness cannot attend date trial is set for (we know there is a social engagement at 7:30 pm for the witness, trial time is 1:30 pm). This further delay is a big problem to my daughter's case. She is moving away to…
This is what happened. I was travelling west on a four lane city street that was very light with traffic. I was making a left hand turn into a wide driveway of a business. There was traffic lights about 100 yards past the driveway and were red for the east-west traffic. I was in the left lane with my signal on and there was no oncoming traffic due to the red light. I was slowed right down…
I was driving my families older car and got pulled over, and the police officer informed me my plate was dirty. He issued me a ticket of $110 for the 13(2) act and obstruct plate as the offense. He informed me that such a plate could be used to avoid red lights as well as 407 tolls, also that buying a new plate can help to lower the ticket if I fight the charge, and that he also took a picture…
I received a red light camera ticket. In the picture, you see an ambulance in front of me with flashing lights. I had moved to alleviate the traffic behind me for the emergency vehicles coming behind it.
Is this a possible defense, if so, does anyone know any good case law to justify this position?
what happens if they charge someone for driving at 151Km/hr in montreal and they put for trial, appear after some months and sadly lost the trial ?
In montreal its $300 fine and 5demerit points ...
I heard Ontario and Qubec share the information. So once the trial is over ( and when the file moved to ontario) will his car gets towed and licence get suspended for 7days (later to 30 days ) ? and he…
I got a notice in the mail that trial is set four weeks from today, so it's time to request disclosure. I have zero chance of getting an 11b since trial is less than two months after the offense date and the officer did not reduce the charge. I really want to try and create delays on the trial, to reduce the chance of the officer showing up on multiple occasions. Is there any known loop-holes…
This weekend my father was involved in an accident with a transit bus in Burlington, ON. After the police showed up he was charged with "Fail to obey stop sign" Sec. 136(1)(a). At this particular intersection there NO stop signs but there are traffic lights. There is construction going on there so one of the light posts is smaller.
Driving conditions were terribly wet and visibility was low.…
So my boyfriend and I recently started dating. I have a vehicle that was insured. Insurance cost too much and I found it was just as easy to walk to work due to how close it was. But I didn't want to get rid of my car just yet, plus I'm still making payments on it as well. When we moved into our appartment together, I had it towed to my parking spot out back.
I was making a left hand legal turn on a green light, a driver came through the lane I was supposed to be going into ran the red and hit me head on as I was turning into my lane. When the officer came he was telling me that I was racing and driving recklessly because apparently there was reports of street racing in the area. I was not charged on the scene for this but I'm scared i am going to be…
I got a ticket for failure to surrender insurance because I did not have my new insurance stubs with me, just a bunch of expired ones. My policy number has not changed, so I asked the officer to just run the policy number so I could prove that I was in fact insured. He said they don't have that ability, handed me the ticket and reminded me that my car could have been impounded.
So I'm in a bit of a pickle and would appreciate if someone could clarify something for me.
I'm less than a month away (test on April 6th) from getting my full G license, and got a speeding ticket recently. The ticket was for 49km/h over the posted limit of 100km/h on the 403 in Oakville/Halton region, but was reduced from the initial ~60km/h over.
