2 tickets on 401: speeding and permit

Hi all,

Yesterday on the 401 I received two tickets:

1) Speeding over 40km/h, and

2) Drive motor vehicle, no currently validated permit.

I would obviously very much like to fight both of these, and have them both dropped, since my insurance would skyrocket if not. Regarding 2), I actually did have the sticker on the license plate, but I just forgot to place it on the ownership form as well. My questions are:

1) What would be the best course of action going forward?

2) Is there any way to treat these tickets seperately? For example, could I choose option 2 for the DMV ticket, go in and show the validated permit, and have them drop that one? Then choose option 3 for the speeding ticket?

Thank you.

The law was changed a few years ago and you are NOT required to have a sticker on the ownership, only on the plate, so you should definitely fight this one as it will get dropped.

For speeding, you can not know how to fight it until you get disclosure. I recommend you plead not guilty and request a trial with the officer present. Once you get your notice of trial with a trial date, then you can request disclosure. Once you get the disclosure, post it here.

jsherk wrote:

The law was changed a few years ago and you are NOT required to have a sticker on the ownership, only on the plate, so you should definitely fight this one as it will get dropped.

For speeding, you can not know how to fight it until you get disclosure. I recommend you plead not guilty and request a trial with the officer present. Once you get your notice of trial with a trial date, then you can request disclosure. Once you get the disclosure, post it here.

Thank you for the reply.

Do you mean to select option 3 for both tickets then (I take it that's what you mean by "fight this one")? The only concern I have with that is that it might look bad in court with two tickets. Is there any way I can resolve the permit ticket without going to trial?

I would choose option 3 for both tickets.

Since one of them is not a proper charge it will have no effect with regards to the speeding charge.

Once you get your notice of trial for both tickets and request disclosure for both tickets and get the disclosure back, you can then write a letter to prosecutor asking if they will drop the permit one because it is not a proper charge.

jsherk wrote:

I would choose option 3 for both tickets.

Since one of them is not a proper charge it will have no effect with regards to the speeding charge.

Once you get your notice of trial for both tickets and request disclosure for both tickets and get the disclosure back, you can then write a letter to prosecutor asking if they will drop the permit one because it is not a proper charge.

Thank you jsherk - much appreciated. Something that just came to mind - would it be possible to make a deal where I pay the permit charge, but the speeding ticket is dropped entirely? I ask because I don't believe the permit charge will affect my insurance, and if I can guarantee the speeding ticket is dropped, that would be a great relief.

I wouldn't be so sure. Paperwork charges like showing your wrong insurance slip or leaving your license at home is no different than speeding 40km. All minor offenses with the same surcharge.

If you want, you can contact your insurance provider and ask. I highly doubt they'd drop the speeding ticket for it anyways.

If you were travelling more than 40 kms/hr over the limit there is no way they are going to drop that. The best you can reasonably hope for is a reduction to 29 kms/hr over.

Thank you bend and argyll. So I guess the best course of action will be to fight both.

Best case scenario: the permit ticket is dropped, and I can hopefully find some fault in the disclosure.

More likely: the permit ticket is dropped, and I get a reduction in the speed.

Does this seem reasonable?

It would appear that the registration ticket is simply an error on the part of the officer so that can be taken out of the equation.

Assuming a reasonable driving history I'd be very surprised in the Crown didn't offer you a reduction in the speed to avoid a trial. The truth is they schedule far more trials on any given day than there is time for so it is in the Cown's interest to settle cases.

Once again, thank you all for the replies. I will be mailing in the ticket, with option 3 selected for both.

In the case of the permit ticket, how exactly do I go about that? How exactly do I prove that there was indeed a license plate sticker, but that I just forgot to add the ownership sticker?

Thank you.

Bump.

If you ask for disclosure, the officers notes should say there was not sticker on the ownership portion. Then just show them the section in the HTA that says it is not required.

Thanks for all the help - I will update this when I receive a trial date and ask for disclosure.

Just be aware that I don't believe the court decision regarding the permit having to be valid isn't a binding decision.

The section you were charged with was probably 7(1)(a) it states:

7. (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a highway unless,

(a) there exists a currently validated permit for the vehicle;

The regulation pertaining to Permits (628) has also been amended to fix the error that was in a prior version where it said that a permit "may" be validated.

6. (1) A permit for a motor vehicle shall be validated by means of evidence of validation provided by the Ministry.

You still may be able to get this one dropped for a plea to the other though.

Decatur wrote:

Just be aware that I don't believe the court decision regarding the permit having to be valid isn't a binding decision.

Yes but right under 6. (1) you need to read 6. (2) that says:

"6. (2) Evidence of validation for a permit shall be affixed to a number plate for the vehicle in accordance with this Regulation, and the portion of the evidence of validation not intended for the number plate may be affixed in the appropriate space provided on the permit for the vehicle."

shall means that you MUST put it on the plate and that it is required.

may means that it is OPTIONAL on the permit and is not required.

You don't need any court decisions, just this regulation... it is very clear that it is not required on the permit.

Missed that. IMO though you do need the court decisions. He was charged under a specific section of the HTA not a section under the regulations. And that section of the Reg actually contradicts itself anyway. Therefor you do need the courts input at some point.

Hello all,

So I have received the trial date (October 3), as well as disclosure. I had hoped that the officer was somehow negligent in his notes, however everything is there. At this point, it doesn't like I'll be able to get both dropped, so I'm looking to get the DMV charge dropped, and maybe a reduced fin on the speeding. What would be the best way to go about that?

Some more information: included in the disclosure package they emailed me was a deal the prosecutor wrote down - a reduction to speeding 129 in a 100 (as opposed to the original 140) if I

also take the DMV. The notes for the DMV ticket were as follows:

"While searching for his insurance I obs permit for vehicle expired Dec 2015. I obs driver pull out permit sticker. I said I will save you some money+you can put the sticker on the back of the permit. He scowled at me said "whatever" + then put sticker back into arm rest."

A note about this - the officer did indeed say he would save me some money - he gestured and pointed to the sticker and did mention putting it on the permit. I had a complete brain fart and had no idea what he was talking about, so I said "what about it? (in regards to the sticker)" at which point he must have gotten frustrated and left back to the cruiser.

Thank you all in advance.

not sure if this helps

I used the new system for renewal. I did it on-line worked great.

I printed the receipt.

It explains clearly where to put the sticker on plate.

Nothing about the other sticker.

Not sure if no direction is a help.

The kit did have full directions but the other stickers could be confusing.

Cheers

Viper1

viper1 wrote:

not sure if this helps

I used the new system for renewal. I did it on-line worked great.

I printed the receipt.

It explains clearly where to put the sticker on plate.

Nothing about the other sticker.

Not sure if no direction is a help.

The kit did have full directions but the other stickers could be confusing.

Cheers

Viper1

Thanks for the input. I'll keep that in mind.

Anyone else have input?

I would call your insurance company and ask them if a 40 over speeding ticket is considered a Minor or a Major infraction. If it is still considered a Minor, then you would be better to take both to trial and fight them. There is no requirement to have a sticker on the back of the ownership (only on the plate), so this charge should get dropped, or you should be able to win by asking them where it says you need sticker on the ownership. If the 40 over speeding is only a minor for insurance purposes, and you win the sticker one, then you will only have one MINOR infraction on your insurance.

Now if the 40 over is considered a Major infraction by insurance you have to decide if (1) you want to fight the sticker charge (should get dropped) but then end up with one MAJOR against your insurance, or (2) take the lower 129 speeding charge which is only a minor but also plead guilty to the sticker charge for another minor ... So two minors is probably better than one minor.

You could also ask insurance how 1 minor affects your rates, how 2 minors affects your rates, and how 1 major affects your rates so you can compare.

jsherk wrote:

I would call your insurance company and ask them if a 40 over speeding ticket is considered a Minor or a Major infraction. If it is still considered a Minor, then you would be better to take both to trial and fight them. There is no requirement to have a sticker on the back of the ownership (only on the plate), so this charge should get dropped, or you should be able to win by asking them where it says you need sticker on the ownership. If the 40 over speeding is only a minor for insurance purposes, and you win the sticker one, then you will only have one MINOR infraction on your insurance.

Now if the 40 over is considered a Major infraction by insurance you have to decide if (1) you want to fight the sticker charge (should get dropped) but then end up with one MAJOR against your insurance, or (2) take the lower 129 speeding charge which is only a minor but also plead guilty to the sticker charge for another minor ... So two minors is probably better than one minor.

You could also ask insurance how 1 minor affects your rates, how 2 minors affects your rates, and how 1 major affects your rates so you can compare.

Hey jhserk,

Thanks for the reply. 40 over is still considered a minor.

At this point, I don't want to go to court because I'll be starting a new job at that time. Is there any way I can meet the prosecutor and get him to drop the sticker charge (bonus would be also reducing to 129 but I doubt it)? I mentioned previously that I did have the sticker, I just didn't put it on. Could I bring that document to them?

You can bring all your stuff and maybe the prosecutor might drop it. But they do not have to. But it never hurts to ask. Start by showing everything and then ask them to drop it and you will plead guilty to 29 over. If that does not work ask them to drop it and you will plead guilty to 40 over. If still does not work, then say you want to take both to trial as the sticker one is not valid.

See if you can search these forums as there are a couple posts about the sticker thing... you will need to get the section number and regulation and case law to show prosecutor that you know what the law says so if they want to push it you can beat them.

jsherk wrote:

You can bring all your stuff and maybe the prosecutor might drop it. But they do not have to. But it never hurts to ask. Start by showing everything and then ask them to drop it and you will plead guilty to 29 over. If that does not work ask them to drop it and you will plead guilty to 40 over. If still does not work, then say you want to take both to trial as the sticker one is not valid.

See if you can search these forums as there are a couple posts about the sticker thing... you will need to get the section number and regulation and case law to show prosecutor that you know what the law says so if they want to push it you can beat them.

Hi jsherk,

When you say bring your stuff, do you mean on the court date?

I've attached a copy of the form emailed to me by the office. From this, it seems that no matter what, I still have to appear in court, even if I accept a reduced plea, correct? Is there any way that I can just phone/mail something to the prosecutor, or even meet with them before the court date (kind of like an early resolution meeting) and settle this without actually going to court on that date? I am very doubtful I will be able to get that day off.

Yes I was saying take everything to court with you. But you can call and ask if the prosecutor will meet with you before the trial date. They might say yes, they might say no. Otherwise you need to attend on the trial date.

If you can not attend the trial date, then you should send a letter to both the provincial offences office and to the prosecutor and state that you can not attend on that date because of XYZ and would like another trial date. It would be best to offer some dates over the next 6 months that you can attend (they should be on the same day of the week as the current trial date is set) so they can pick one that will work for you.

jsherk wrote:

Yes I was saying take everything to court with you. But you can call and ask if the prosecutor will meet with you before the trial date. They might say yes, they might say no. Otherwise you need to attend on the trial date.

If you can not attend the trial date, then you should send a letter to both the provincial offences office and to the prosecutor and state that you can not attend on that date because of XYZ and would like another trial date. It would be best to offer some dates over the next 6 months that you can attend (they should be on the same day of the week as the current trial date is set) so they can pick one that will work for you.

Ah, I see. Since the prosecutor themself didn't have a phone number, I assume I'll just call the office and say "Hello, I would like to schedule a meeting with Prosecutor XXXX...." something like that? I'm lost as to what to say actually. Or do I ask to speak with the Prosecutor over the phone personally, then ask for a meeting then?

Yes just call and tell them you want to meet with prosecutor before trial. They will tell you how to go about it.

That's pretty harsh. I would have expected an offer of +29 and the other is dropped.

Insurance wise you'd be better off taking the +40 if they'd drop the other. It's not the fine that matters but the insurance hike.

Wow, I can't believe that is the deal you got. I think if you go to court that day, they might let you plea to the 129, and drop the permit if you show it, but it's the luck of the draw. Just go in nicely and say you will plead guilty to the plea if they drop the permit charge. If they're having a good day, they might.

Thank you everybody for the replies. At this point, it seems I just have to wait until the court date of October 5th, and hope for the best!