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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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Is there any product / service that could....
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:56 am 
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...PROVE 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you were NOT speeding and verify your actual speed? Something like a third party GPS tracking service or a physical device (hardware) which could be used (in court) to defend one's case?


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Re: Is there any product / service that could....
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:44 am 
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The simple answer is no. Nothing can ever be proven 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that you were not speeding. An in fact, the court doesn't even use such a high standard to convict.


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Re: Is there any product / service that could....
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:16 pm 
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There are "black boxes" in most modern cars that are used to record certain parameters in the even of an accident. I believe they only record the previous fives minutes worth of data and then is reused (continuous loop).
These boxes are vendor specific and may not be reliable. Also, I'm not sure if they can be used legally in a defence or prosecution.

I do know a lot of people in Russia have added video devices to their cars, due to the extensive corruption there. But it does not show speed, braking or anything else so it's use could be limited.


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Re: Is there any product / service that could....
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:32 am 
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G35Dalf wrote:
There are "black boxes" in most modern cars that are used to record certain parameters in the even of an accident. I believe they only record the previous fives minutes worth of data and then is reused (continuous loop).

it is only 25 seconds and it loops

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Re: Is there any product / service that could....
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:10 am 
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Thanks guys.

Surprising though, given all the technological wonders we have in this day and age, that a driver cannot use technology to prove his/her innocence. As for those cams you were talking about, I am fully aware of those, and contrary to your belief some models DO include the date & speed (I.E: the DOD F500HD).

I know the technology exists; but what I was trying to drive at was.....is there some sort of 100% iron-clad guarantee you could use it to protect yourself, if falsely accused of speeding or violating some road rules. I guess : A) Either Canadians are truly behind the times OR B) (And I'm guessing this is what it really comes down to) NOT WHEN THERE'S A PROFIT TO BE HAD.

Personally, I beleive judges here are afraid to set a precendence using this type of technology, because let's face it....police are human beings too, therefore fallible. If a machine was to prove an officer wrong, it would no doubt affect revenue for the government. Based on our current system, your word against a police officers doesn't really make much difference unless the judge determines on his/her own that something the officer is saying doesn't add up. That, or if there are witnesses to back you up.

May sound like sour grapes, but that's just my opinion.


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Re: Is there any product / service that could....
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:06 pm 
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Such a device wouldn’t need to prove your speed with absolute certainty; it would merely need to raise reasonable doubt.

I think the big issue is that the technology would have to be something accepted and understood by the Courts. Merely saying my GPS said I was only going “X” wouldn’t be sufficient. How the technology works, its accuracy and validity would all have to be demonstrated. Getting such technology and its evidence accepted could be a very time consuming and expensive process. It then becomes a question of how time and resources do you devote to fighting a ticket?

Charged with murder? I'll sell my house to prove my innocence. Speeding ticket? Not so much. :)


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Re: Is there any product / service that could....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:29 am 
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GPS idea was already tossed out of courts as a defence. Coles notes version is that the GPS is not completely "accurate". There is a thread somewhere on here about that case.

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Re: Is there any product / service that could....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:33 am 
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Stanton wrote:
Such a device wouldn’t need to prove your speed with absolute certainty; it would merely need to raise reasonable doubt.

I think the big issue is that the technology would have to be something accepted and understood by the Courts. Merely saying my GPS said I was only going “X” wouldn’t be sufficient. How the technology works, its accuracy and validity would all have to be demonstrated. Getting such technology and its evidence accepted could be a very time consuming and expensive process. It then becomes a question of how time and resources do you devote to fighting a ticket?

Charged with murder? I'll sell my house to prove my innocence. Speeding ticket? Not so much. :)


Touche.

But that's part of the problem (IMHO). We (the people) let far too much slide, and they count on that. They know we'll give up after a little hissy fit and then throw in the towel. Sorry, just venting.
Oh well.....maybe one day we'll rise up and force them to make changes that will actually serve us.


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Re: Is there any product / service that could....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:31 pm
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YMS_1975 wrote:
Thanks guys.

Surprising though, given all the technological wonders we have in this day and age, that a driver cannot use technology to prove his/her innocence. As for those cams you were talking about, I am fully aware of those, and contrary to your belief some models DO include the date & speed (I.E: the DOD F500HD).

I know the technology exists; but what I was trying to drive at was.....is there some sort of 100% iron-clad guarantee you could use it to protect yourself, if falsely accused of speeding or violating some road rules. I guess : A) Either Canadians are truly behind the times OR B) (And I'm guessing this is what it really comes down to) NOT WHEN THERE'S A PROFIT TO BE HAD.

Personally, I beleive judges here are afraid to set a precendence using this type of technology, because let's face it....police are human beings too, therefore fallible. If a machine was to prove an officer wrong, it would no doubt affect revenue for the government. Based on our current system, your word against a police officers doesn't really make much difference unless the judge determines on his/her own that something the officer is saying doesn't add up. That, or if there are witnesses to back you up.

May sound like sour grapes, but that's just my opinion.


The date is easy to change.

Cheers
Viper1

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use at your own risk"


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Re: Is there any product / service that could....
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:31 am 
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Yes, the technology exists. Nothing is ever 100%, but you can get pretty close.

The amount of information available on your vehicles ECU as it runs is quite extensive. While it'll hold certain information like check engine codes, it won't tell you how fast you were traveling last Monday. It does however have this information available in real-time. The issue is having a recording of whatever data you need.

You can get all this information through your vehicle's (1996+) OBD2 port. It's the same way your mechanic helps diagnose issues with your vehicle, and starting in 2013, it'll be how every drive clean test is done. It used to be you had to buy an expensive cable, laptop, and software to take full advantage of this port.

Today, cables are replaced with Bluetooth adapters, laptops are replaced with your everyday smartphone, and software is available for a couple dollars as an app. You can purchase a Bluetooth adapter (ELM327) that will send this information in real-time to your smartphone through apps like Torque for Android. Using your cell phone camera as a dash cam and Torque plugins to create an overlay, the result is this:



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Re: Is there any product / service that could....
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:22 am 
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Interesting. I’ve also seen apps where you mount your phone to the windshield so that it will record your driving in real time with the GPS speed superimposed. Mix that with the OBD2 data and I think you’d have a pretty good argument. Of course the difficulty would be explaining the technology to the Courts and getting it admitted.

One note of caution about OBD2 data, is that it records your wheel speed, not your actual vehicle speed (at least to my understanding). I was talking with an investigator dealing with a relatively serious crash on icy roads a few years back. The on board data showed a faster speed then they believed the vehicle was actually travelling, likely due to wheel spin on the slippery road.


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Re: Is there any product / service that could....
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:08 pm 
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Stanton wrote:
Interesting. I’ve also seen apps where you mount your phone to the windshield so that it will record your driving in real time with the GPS speed superimposed. Mix that with the OBD2 data and I think you’d have a pretty good argument. Of course the difficulty would be explaining the technology to the Courts and getting it admitted.

One note of caution about OBD2 data, is that it records your wheel speed, not your actual vehicle speed (at least to my understanding). I was talking with an investigator dealing with a relatively serious crash on icy roads a few years back. The on board data showed a faster speed then they believed the vehicle was actually travelling, likely due to wheel spin on the slippery road.


good points Stanton, further, how would a driver know that the data info is transfered properly over to the speedometer?
then just add in the ole....well when I saw the officer I was going this fast, as compared to the when the officer has activated the unit and obtained a a speed reading about 10-30seconds before the cruiser was even seen

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