12hr vs 3 day Suspension

***I MOVED this quote...as it does not fall under street racing*****

Reflections wrote:

If the breatealyzer reads a warning you now get a 3 day suspension instead of 12 hour. I can understand the 12 hour but 3 days when no law was broken....seems heavyhanded. I'm all for safety but this is overboard.

I could understand 3 days if there is a breatealyzer [sp.] available for the public to try. Say have a beer and take a reading, have a second take a reading and so on. We the public have no access to know what 50mg/100ml feels like, I do know what copious amounts feels like . I like to enjoy myself and have a pint or two now and then, but I don't see the need to disrupt someones life for three days when technically they have done nothing wrong.

The instrument that is used at roadside is called an "Approved Screening Device" (ASD)most often is a Drager Alcotest 7410GLC. This instrument is approved by the Canadian Solictor General, and CFS (Centre of Forensic Science).

The Breathalyzer or Intoxilyzer are instruments used back at detachments/stations to get a actual number for how much alcohol is in a person blood.

At roadside if you blow into the ASD and you register between 0-49mgs of alcohol in 100ml of blood the actual number will be displayed. From 50mgs to 99mgs an "A" or warning, 100mgs or above is a "F" or Fail.

If you register the 0-49mgs you will be sent on your way.

If you register the "A" that is a 12hr suspension (3 day is not yet in effect)

If you register the "F" the driver is arrested.

When in fact the currrent 12hr is very weak, the reason I say that is NOTHING goes on the driving record. An someone that even gets a 1km over speeding ticket goes on their record.......to compare, someone drinking and driving would get no record.....just doesn't make sense.

With the 3 day suspension for the first time will go on the driving record, 2nd time I think is 7 day suspension.

In general each drink = 15mgs of alcohol in 100ml of blood. 4 drinks your body = 60mgs. Your body eliminates 15mgs per hr as well. So 4 drinks in 1hr = (15x4 = 60mgs minus 15mgs for 1hr = 45mgs)

so if each drink is 15mg per 100ml of blood, would that mean some one who has had 2 drinks would have 30mg/100ml and would be safe to drive?

that would be 30mgs......then of course you have some elapsed time I'm sure in that consumption....ie 10-20min at least from end of first drink to end of 2nd, which also starts the elimination process as well

hwybear wrote:

that would be 30mgs......then of course you have some elapsed time I'm sure in that consumption....ie 10-20min at least from end of first drink to end of 2nd, which also starts the elimination process as well

I am still a bit confused....so you are saying that if in 1 hr some one drinks 3 standard beers, he would still be ok to drive with the 45mg/100ml of blood alcohol level?

Because I heard something about G license drivers can have up to max 1 standard drink in their system, and anything over that is against the law.

Can you possibly explain a little bit more about how this works?

Thanks

Is there any way to test ourselves for future reference?

ex. I would like to pound down 4 beers in one hour then blow. Is any police service willing to assist me?

We know when we're speeding... we can see the speedometer. But I (and most folks, I suspect) have no idea when they're JUST over the limit with alcohol.

Bookm wrote:

We know when we're speeding... we can see the speedometer.

FINALLY....just actually keep monitoring it....rather than only check it when you drive past us

Here is a good reference guide, called a "Drink Wheel", you enter the required information and it will give you a result.

http://www.intox.com/wheel/drinkwheel.asp

**admin** there is a link on the above site to show you how to add the "drink wheel" to a website, if you think it is appropriate for this site, for your consideration.

admin wrote:

I am still a bit confused....so you are saying that if in 1 hr some one drinks 3 standard beers, he would still be ok to drive with the 45mg/100ml of blood alcohol level?

Because I heard something about G license drivers can have up to max 1 standard drink in their system, and anything over that is against the law.

Can you possibly explain a little bit more about how this works?

Class G1 and G2 can not have any alcohol reading at all...zero!

Class G, is allowed up to 49mgs of alcohol in 100ml of blood and can still drive.

An average (regardless of shape/size/sex) eliminates 15mgs of alcohol out of the body in 1 complete hour(60min).....or 7.5mgs out in 30min.

The average standard drink will "input" 15mgs of alcohol INTO the body.

Avg drink is 12oz beer, 1 glass of wine 5oz, 1oz shot.

****************************************************

Other factors:

Food: Food only slows down how fast the alcohol is absorbed into the body through the small intestine. It is still the same amount of alcohol, but it takes longer for your body to feel it.

Weight: Is based on water content in the body. (ie drop of chocolate syrup into a glass of milk and another drop of syrup into a shot glass of milk........the syrup will dilute more in the glass of milk.........chocolate taste will be almost non-existent in the glass of milk). So if you are a heavier person, you have more area(water) for the alcohol to disperse in.

Cheap Drunk as compared to an Expensive One: A person who drinks daily and/or seasoned drinker body reacts in a different manner to the alcohol that is in the body. The body starts becoming immune to the alcohol and to such a point that the body starts relying on alcohol (addicts or AA). Much similiar to nicotene addiction or for some of us a morning....caffeine addiction. Only difference is alcohol adversely affects the body in its day to day functions

***********************************

Coles notes: It takes 1 hour to remove 1 drink from a body.

So, that still does not answer the question of why do we need a 3-day suspension when we have not broken the law???? An "A" is 50-99 and the legal limit is 80?? Or is there more to this then is currently being told ???

hwybear wrote:

Here is a good reference guide, called a "Drink Wheel", you enter the required information and it will give you a result.

http://www.intox.com/wheel/drinkwheel.asp

**admin** there is a link on the above site to show you how to add the "drink wheel" to a website, if you think it is appropriate for this site, for your consideration.

Thats a really neat tool!

I will try to some how integrate that into the site in the near future.

Thanks.

hwybear wrote:

An average (regardless of shape/size/sex) eliminates 15mgs of alcohol out of the body in 1 complete hour(60min).....or 7.5mgs out in 30min.

The average standard drink will "input" 15mgs of alcohol INTO the body.

Avg drink is 12oz beer, 1 glass of wine 5oz, 1oz shot.

Thanks for sharing some light on this.

Most people aren't aware of this fact...at least I wasn't

I always thought that having anymore than 1 drink in my system, could fail me. But according to the tool as well, I wouldn't be over the limit unless I drank more than 3 beers in an hour.

Thanks to Hwybear's great suggestion, I have created a new page for that breathalyzer test.

http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com ... r-test.php

Reflections wrote:

So, that still does not answer the question of why do we need a 3-day suspension when we have not broken the law???? An "A" is 50-99 and the legal limit is 80?? Or is there more to this then is currently being told ???

Over 80mgs is absolutely breaking the law...Criminal Code 253(b)

There are other factors that are involved that politicians have to consider when they made the 50-99mgs warning. It depends on alcohol consumption once again....and the variety around it.

ie #1: someone drinks several drinks, but it is now 4hrs later, and goes to blow, that person's readings are on the decline due to elimination of alcohol from the body.....so they could actually blow 99mgs.....and get an "A", but why? If you transport the person to the office (usually 1/2hr, then wait for a lawyer possibly 1/2hr) the person now has elminated 15mgs and down to 84mgs....add in time of 20min minimum between tests the reading will now be under 80mgs and thus NO offence under CC 253(b)

ie #2 someone drinks several drinks quickly, and goes to blow, that persons readings are on the INCLINE as the body has not yet absorbed all of the alcohol into the body.......so they blow 50mgs....and get and "A", but why? The body can only absorb/process alcohol so fast (I forget the rate). So the person could potentially have drank 8 drinks in an hour.....but only shows 50mgs (5 drinks-1hr 1/2half) but still has 3 drinks not yet absorbed, when the body catches up in processing the drinks they will be blowing over 80mgs....and there is an offence under CC 253(b)

No one can tell at roadside which way a persons readings are going (eliminating or inclining)....so this 50-99mgs is a fair way to treat all drivers. It gets the drivers pushing the legal alcohol limit off the road, keeps police from unnecessarily being tied up with an driver that could eventually blow under the limit.

I agree to the safe side of things but with all the recent changes, I feel we are being safetied to death. Bookm's quip about having fun while driving might be true after all. And didn't you ask the question, "why are we not responsible for our own actions anymore?". Probably because responsibility has been/in the process of is being removed by the law makers.

hwybear wrote:

The instrument that is used at roadside is called an "Approved Screening Device" (ASD)most often is a Drager Alcotest 7410GLC. This instrument is approved by the Canadian Solictor General, and CFS (Centre of Forensic Science).

The Breathalyzer or Intoxilyzer are instruments used back at detachments/stations to get a actual number for how much alcohol is in a person blood.

If the law were properly implemented as it is written the police cannot administer a Breathalyzer or Intoxilyzer after the roadside screening device is used.

The criminal code is federal law. The highway traffic act is provincial law. The federal law trumps provincial law.

The HTA allow the officer to demand a Breathalyzer after a roadside screening is administered.

However, criminal code s. 258(2) articulates the results from the roadside screening test cannot be used for unauthorized purposes. It lists the valid authorized purposes in 258(a). Section 253(a) or (b) is not listed.

Therefore, the police are not authorized by any law to use the results from 254(2)(b) to force someone to submit to a Breathalyzer test under 254(3) in their attempt to charge them under s. 253.

Code s. 254(2)(b) deals with roadside screening. It states;

(b) to provide forthwith a sample of breath that, in the peace officers opinion, will enable a proper analysis to be made by means of an approved screening device and, if necessary, to accompany the peace officer for that purpose.

Unauthorized use or disclosure of results

258(2) Subject to subsections (3) and (4), no person shall use, disclose or allow the disclosure of the results of physical coordination tests under paragraph 254(2)(a), the results of an evaluation under subsection 254(3.1), the results of the analysis of a bodily substance taken under paragraph 254(2)(b), subsection 254(3), (3.3) or (3.4) or section 256 or with the consent of the person from whom it was taken after a request by a peace officer, or the results of the analysis of medical samples that are provided by consent and subsequently seized under a warrant, except

(a) in the course of an investigation of, or in a proceeding for, an offence under any of sections 220, 221, 236 and 249 to 255, an offence under Part I of the Aeronautics Act, or an offence under the Railway Safety Act in respect of a contravention of a rule or regulation made under that Act respecting the use of alcohol or a drug; or

(b) for the purpose of the administration or enforcement of the law of a province.

Do these machines have the ability to detect the presence of blood in the breath sample? Perhaps I have such poor dental hygiene that my gum's bleed. I blow into a machine designed to test for alcohol levels in "breath". Is the breath sample not contaminated and inaccurate?

Alcohol concentrations in blood are much higher than in breath. So will this higher concentration of alcohol not result in a higher breath reading if blood were to be blown into the machine?

lawmen wrote:

hwybear wrote:

The instrument that is used at roadside is called an "Approved Screening Device" (ASD)most often is a Drager Alcotest 7410GLC. This instrument is approved by the Canadian Solictor General, and CFS (Centre of Forensic Science).

The Breathalyzer or Intoxilyzer are instruments used back at detachments/stations to get a actual number for how much alcohol is in a person blood.

If the law were properly implemented as it is written the police cannot administer a Breathalyzer or Intoxilyzer after the roadside screening device is used.

The criminal code is federal law. The highway traffic act is provincial law. The federal law trumps provincial law.

The HTA allow the officer to demand a Breathalyzer after a roadside screening is administered.

However, criminal code s. 258(2) articulates the results from the roadside screening test cannot be used for unauthorized purposes. It lists the valid authorized purposes in 258(a). Section 253(a) or (b) is not listed.

Therefore, the police are not authorized by any law to use the results from 254(2)(b) to force someone to submit to a Breathalyzer test under 254(3) in their attempt to charge them under s. 253.

Code s. 254(2)(b) deals with roadside screening. It states;

(b) to provide forthwith a sample of breath that, in the peace officers opinion, will enable a proper analysis to be made by means of an approved screening device and, if necessary, to accompany the peace officer for that purpose.

Unauthorized use or disclosure of results

258(2) Subject to subsections (3) and (4), no person shall use, disclose or allow the disclosure of the results of physical coordination tests under paragraph 254(2)(a), the results of an evaluation under subsection 254(3.1), the results of the analysis of a bodily substance taken under paragraph 254(2)(b), subsection 254(3), (3.3) or (3.4) or section 256 or with the consent of the person from whom it was taken after a request by a peace officer, or the results of the analysis of medical samples that are provided by consent and subsequently seized under a warrant, except

(a) in the course of an investigation of, or in a proceeding for, an offence under any of sections 220, 221, 236 and 249 to 255, an offence under Part I of the Aeronautics Act, or an offence under the Railway Safety Act in respect of a contravention of a rule or regulation made under that Act respecting the use of alcohol or a drug; or

(b) for the purpose of the administration or enforcement of the law of a province.

Is the valid section not listed in the "big numbers" above?

Ha! Good one. I missed the word "to."

Bookm wrote:

Do these machines have the ability to detect the presence of blood in the breath sample? Perhaps I have such poor dental hygiene that my gum's bleed. I blow into a machine designed to test for alcohol levels in "breath". Is the breath sample not contaminated and inaccurate?

Alcohol concentrations in blood are much higher than in breath. So will this higher concentration of alcohol not result in a higher breath reading if blood were to be blown into the machine?

Breath instruments obtain their readings from air not liquid.

From Wiki:

Mouth alcohol

One of the most common causes of falsely high breathalyzer readings is the existence of mouth alcohol. In analyzing a subject's breath sample, the breathalyzer's internal computer is making the assumption that the alcohol in the breath sample came from alveolar air—that is, air exhaled from deep within the lungs. However, alcohol may have come from the mouth, throat or stomach for a number of reasons.

The problem with mouth alcohol being analyzed by the breathalyzer is that it was not absorbed through the stomach and intestines and passed through the blood to the lungs. In other words, the machine's computer is mistakenly applying the "partition ratio" and multiplying the result. Consequently, a very tiny amount of alcohol from the mouth, throat or stomach can have a significant impact on the breath alcohol reading.

I would conclude that blood could be blown into the machine just as easily as a belch.

You are not understanding "mouth alcohol affect".

Mouth alcohol is residual alcohol in the mouth. This is caused by the last "swig" of beer and then blowing directly into the instrument, where the alcohol is fresh in the mouth, therefore a false/high reading is obtained.

Same can be done with mouth wash, contains alcohol, swish that around, spit it out and the alcohol in the mouthwash will make a person FAIL the test.

This is why we have to determine the last consumption of alcohol, driving time from a bar, open beer in vehicle. We either wait 15minutes if open alcohol is found in the vehicle, or determine by travelling time from where the person was. Waiting 15 minutes eliminates the mouth alcohol affect and therefore a true alcohol reading from lung air will be obtained!

Your right! I'm not...

In your reply you used beer and mouthwash as examples. Both these are not pure alcohol. They are mixed with water. If "fresh" in the mouth, the alcohol component contaminates the breathalyzer and results in a higher reading than a "deep lung" exhalation. If a suspect is bleeding in his mouth, his blood is constantly providing a "fresh" supply of alcohol to his mouth, the same as the mouthwash would. I don't see how this wouldn't affect the machine.

The only reason I bring this up is because I once watched a defense lawyer ask an officer on the stand if he checked for blood before conducting any tests. The officer said, "No". During the judges ruling, he said he was intrigued by the lawyers questioning, but since he didn't follow it up with any arguments during closing, he chose not to include this portion of the questioning in his deliberations. (= guilty)

Bookm wrote:

If a suspect is bleeding in his mouth, his blood is constantly providing a "fresh" supply of alcohol to his mouth, the same as the mouthwash would. I don't see how this wouldn't affect the machine.

Go out on a limb here.....that the alcohol in the blood is at the same concentration as the air from the lungs, as it is already processed from the stomach into the bloodstream. As comparing alcohol coming directly into the body (ie alcoholic beverage) which has yet to be processed by the body.

What would I do without Google?!

There's also a variety of products found in the environment that can lead to erroneous BAC results with breathalyzers. Some these products include substances or compounds found in cleaning fluids, celluloid, gasoline, paint removers, and in lacquers. Other common substances that can result in false BAC levels are alcohol, vomit, or blood in the person's mouth. False BAC readings can also be caused from electrical interference, dirt, smoke, cell phones, police radios, moisture, and tobacco smoke.

[url]http://www.alcohol-test-info.comAlcohol_Blood_Tests_vs_Breathalyzers.html[/url]

Bookm wrote:

What would I do without Google?!

Sit and twiddle your thumbs?

But since you have google it is the absolute answer to all