Thanks for such a great site. Thanks to all the people that take time to respond and post follow ups they are very helpful. So here is the deal.... I had a court date set for yesterday in Woodstock Ontario-I live in tToronto. I did use this iste and had all my preparation ready. i went to court and got there early. I go there at 1 oclock for the 2 oclock docket. Shortly after 2 oclock I noticed a fellow popping his head out of a door and calling numbers. I finally asked someone and they ssaid that is the prodecutor and he is interviewing to see where to put you on the docket. They then told me about the amaozng deal they got. reduced to Disobey sign (2popints) and same fine! i had been looking around and did not see the officer that had pulled me over, so when my turn finally came and i was given the same offer i said i would pleading not guilty. 2 oclock turns to 3 oclock and I went inside the courtroom as I was getting anxious and i wanted to get the lay of the land. well at that point I find out we are still on the 10 oclock docket!!!! Needless to say my prosecutor put me at the bottom of the pile and it turned into 6.15pm! I was finally called up and told there was no time for me to have a trial and the prosecutor was asking for an adjounrment. Worship asked me what i thought. i said i was not happy as I took off a day of work travelled all the way from toronto and had to wait till 6.15 to be told to come back another time. Further, I was ready to go. He told me that was too bad it was too late to start trials as the day had been very long and I the court was FORCED to adjourn. After negotiating we came to a date of January 20, 2010. So where do I stand now? this does not seem right? what motions , rights etc do I have? It seems to me the prosecution knowing at 3.30 there would not be time for new trials could have cut me (and the other 3 people that where pleading not guilty) loose then. Seems that if I had agreed to his reduction and fine i would have been done. Seems to me I 2was being punished for not making a deal! Am i just whinning or is there something wrong with this picture. your earliest answers are appreciated gatorMan
Thanks for such a great site. Thanks to all the people that take time to respond and post follow ups they are very helpful. So here is the deal.... I had a court date set for yesterday in Woodstock Ontario-I live in tToronto. I did use this iste and had all my preparation ready. i went to court and got there early. I go there at 1 oclock for the 2 oclock docket. Shortly after 2 oclock I noticed a fellow popping his head out of a door and calling numbers. I finally asked someone and they ssaid that is the prodecutor and he is interviewing to see where to put you on the docket. They then told me about the amaozng deal they got. reduced to Disobey sign (2popints) and same fine! i had been looking around and did not see the officer that had pulled me over, so when my turn finally came and i was given the same offer i said i would pleading not guilty.
2 oclock turns to 3 oclock and I went inside the courtroom as I was getting anxious and i wanted to get the lay of the land. well at that point I find out we are still on the 10 oclock docket!!!! Needless to say my prosecutor put me at the bottom of the pile and it turned into 6.15pm! I was finally called up and told there was no time for me to have a trial and the prosecutor was asking for an adjounrment. Worship asked me what i thought. i said i was not happy as I took off a day of work travelled all the way from toronto and had to wait till 6.15 to be told to come back another time. Further, I was ready to go. He told me that was too bad it was too late to start trials as the day had been very long and I the court was FORCED to adjourn. After negotiating we came to a date of January 20, 2010. So where do I stand now? this does not seem right? what motions , rights etc do I have? It seems to me the prosecution knowing at 3.30 there would not be time for new trials could have cut me (and the other 3 people that where pleading not guilty) loose then. Seems that if I had agreed to his reduction and fine i would have been done. Seems to me I 2was being punished for not making a deal! Am i just whinning or is there something wrong with this picture.
If the new trial is close to a year from the offence date you can file for a stay based on a Charter 11b arguement. You can find File Form 4F on http://www.ticketcombat.com. Fill out the form with all of your info and send the copies to all parties involved. What you had there was the crown trying to push through as many cases as possible without trial......dirty pool. Good job at holding your ground.
If the new trial is close to a year from the offence date you can file for a stay based on a Charter 11b arguement. You can find File Form 4F on http://www.ticketcombat.com. Fill out the form with all of your info and send the copies to all parties involved.
What you had there was the crown trying to push through as many cases as possible without trial......dirty pool. Good job at holding your ground.
http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com
Thank you reflections!!! The date of my alleged offence was 24 March 2009. when they asked for adjourmnet they started with Dec 16. I said that I could not make it because I was travelling out of the country (UK for holiday). they then choose March 17, unfortunately that is March break and the famuily and i are away again!. They then said what about January 20 and i let them know ii had an important business tripplanned to windsor for that day. Justice was getting frustrated i beleive and asked if that did not give me time to rearrange my schedule. I reconcidered everything and under duress decided it was better to piss off my ciustomers than the court. So i relented. the justice did note that my trial should be pre-something or other" that ius to say i should go first or close to first. he did also note that an earlier date was available (dec 16) and i was not. I thought, clever them, they were closing the door on the 11b issue. Bottom line i have to take another day off work pay for anothe 4 1/2 hrs worth of gasoline for the Gas Guzzling Explorer i drive and I woke up in the middle of the night anxious as to how this will all shake out. doi you still think I have a chance with 11b? what grounds etc? when i woke up last night i was considering going back and making a deal to lesser offence. if 11b is unsuccessful can i then try and negotIate a deal before trial starts? would it be appropriate? any help is gratefully accepted!
Thank you reflections!!!
The date of my alleged offence was 24 March 2009. when they asked for adjourmnet they started with Dec 16. I said that I could not make it because I was travelling out of the country (UK for holiday). they then choose March 17, unfortunately that is March break and the famuily and i are away again!. They then said what about January 20 and i let them know ii had an important business tripplanned to windsor for that day. Justice was getting frustrated i beleive and asked if that did not give me time to rearrange my schedule. I reconcidered everything and under duress decided it was better to piss off my ciustomers than the court. So i relented. the justice did note that my trial should be pre-something or other" that ius to say i should go first or close to first. he did also note that an earlier date was available (dec 16) and i was not. I thought, clever them, they were closing the door on the 11b issue.
Bottom line i have to take another day off work pay for anothe 4 1/2 hrs worth of gasoline for the Gas Guzzling Explorer i drive and I woke up in the middle of the night anxious as to how this will all shake out.
doi you still think I have a chance with 11b? what grounds etc? when i woke up last night i was considering going back and making a deal to lesser offence. if 11b is unsuccessful can i then try and negotIate a deal before trial starts? would it be appropriate?
I found this in CanLii-1987. Is this the type of thing I should be quoting from? In other word as a result of the inadequacy of the institutional resources-overbooking the day-my 'day in court' has been put back another 2 months. Couple this with the startegy of the prosecutor to 'push through' as many guilty pleas as he could-knowing I would not be tried that day and making me sit there waiting to find out when the court could rescedule me. The factors to be considered and weighed in determining whether there has been an infringement of the right to be tried within a reasonable time are: (a) whether the delay complained of is prima facie unreasonable, having regard to the inherent time requirements of the particular case; (b) the reasons or responsibility for the delay, having regard to the conduct of the prosecution and the accused, including the question of failure to object or waiver, as well as the conduct of the court and any responsibility which may be reasonably assigned to the unacceptable inadequacy of institutional resources; and (c) the prejudice caused to the accused by a particular delay.
Reflections wrote:
If the new trial is close to a year from the offence date you can file for a stay based on a Charter 11b arguement. You can find File Form 4F on http://www.ticketcombat.com. Fill out the form with all of your info and send the copies to all parties involved.
What you had there was the crown trying to push through as many cases as possible without trial......dirty pool. Good job at holding your ground.
I found this in CanLii-1987. Is this the type of thing I should be quoting from? In other word as a result of the inadequacy of the institutional resources-overbooking the day-my 'day in court' has been put back another 2 months. Couple this with the startegy of the prosecutor to 'push through' as many guilty pleas as he could-knowing I would not be tried that day and making me sit there waiting to find out when the court could rescedule me.
The factors to be considered and weighed in determining whether there has been an infringement of the right to be tried within a reasonable time are: (a) whether the delay complained of is prima facie unreasonable, having regard to the inherent time requirements of the particular case; (b) the reasons or responsibility for the delay, having regard to the conduct of the prosecution and the accused, including the question of failure to object or waiver, as well as the conduct of the court and any responsibility which may be reasonably assigned to the unacceptable inadequacy of institutional resources; and (c) the prejudice caused to the accused by a particular delay.
Unfortunately you are 9 months from the offence date. This is boarderline as to an 11b. The face of the document can be found here:http://www.ontariocourtforms.on.ca/english/civil. There is more to it though.....
wow, its that time again. Jan 21 coming up. i did not go through the procedure of filing for 11b, intimidated etc. Will I be in a position to delay this again? Can I say that I would like a new date as I will be making a constitutional challenge? should i just plea bargain and cut my losses? can i ask judge for even lower fine amount after making deal with prosecutor? This will be my third trip from toronto to woodstock. The time off work, gas money, low income due to ecomony etc
wow,
its that time again. Jan 21 coming up. i did not go through the procedure of filing for 11b, intimidated etc.
Will I be in a position to delay this again?
Can I say that I would like a new date as I will be making a constitutional challenge?
should i just plea bargain and cut my losses? can i ask judge for even lower fine amount after making deal with prosecutor? This will be my third trip from toronto to woodstock. The time off work, gas money, low income due to ecomony etc
have you requested disclosure? What is the purpose of delaying the case again? If you ask for adjournment (or if you are the cause), the extra time does not count for 11b. Hopefully you had requested disclosure. If you havn't received it yet, this would cause an adjournment (charged to the prosecution) and improve you chances for an 11b. If you try to ask for disclosure on your court date, judge should agree and adjourn, but it would be charged to you because you waited until the last second (thus, you are the cause of the delay). So this does not help for 11b. Hopefully the officer doesn't show. Find out if he is there. IF so, go for the plea bargain. Sure, you can ask the judge for a lower fine amount, but no chance it will be granted given the deal.
have you requested disclosure?
What is the purpose of delaying the case again? If you ask for adjournment (or if you are the cause), the extra time does not count for 11b.
Hopefully you had requested disclosure. If you havn't received it yet, this would cause an adjournment (charged to the prosecution) and improve you chances for an 11b.
If you try to ask for disclosure on your court date, judge should agree and adjourn, but it would be charged to you because you waited until the last second (thus, you are the cause of the delay). So this does not help for 11b.
Hopefully the officer doesn't show. Find out if he is there. IF so, go for the plea bargain. Sure, you can ask the judge for a lower fine amount, but no chance it will be granted given the deal.
Thank you for taking time to reply. yes i asked for disclosure originally. They sent me the officers notes.The prosecutor just told me that they schedule all trials on dates that the officers are working. If they need the officer they will call him and he drives over. He offered me Disobey Sign (2 points) and same fine-329$ he will not change fine amount. Looks like full docket again today. he gave me time to think about it. I am first on trial list based on last time here. The officer is from Tillsonburg OPP and I am at Woodstock Court house. Perhaps I should wait as long as I can and hope if/when they call himk he cant make it. Tough call as that "roll of the dice" coukld cost me 2 points
Thank you for taking time to reply. yes i asked for disclosure originally. They sent me the officers notes.The prosecutor just told me that they schedule all trials on dates that the officers are working. If they need the officer they will call him and he drives over. He offered me Disobey Sign (2 points) and same fine-329$ he will not change fine amount. Looks like full docket again today. he gave me time to think about it. I am first on trial list based on last time here. The officer is from Tillsonburg OPP and I am at Woodstock Court house. Perhaps I should wait as long as I can and hope if/when they call himk he cant make it. Tough call as that "roll of the dice" coukld cost me 2 points
What did you ask for in your disclosure? Did you ask for a copy of the radar manual? Hopefully you did! You can tell the judge before you plead that you have not received full disclosure. Judge should adjourn and delay would be charged to prosecution. This should give you more time and a better chance for 11b. Let us know how it unfolds tomorrow..... Good luck!
What did you ask for in your disclosure? Did you ask for a copy of the radar manual? Hopefully you did! You can tell the judge before you plead that you have not received full disclosure. Judge should adjourn and delay would be charged to prosecution. This should give you more time and a better chance for 11b.
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