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Please help find who's fault is this (dash cam video)
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:42 pm 
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Hi,

Yesterday I got into accident. I would like to know what is telling highway act. The other driver is entering intersection on the yellow light and driving straight.

Here is the video:

http://youtu.be/edSHukZDHqw

Thanks in advance.


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Re: Please help find who's fault is this (dash cam video)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:48 pm 
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You would be at fault. You did not wait for the intersection to clear before you proceeded with the green.


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Re: Please help find who's fault is this (dash cam video)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:16 pm 
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Clearly, the vehicle with the dash cam is at fault on this one. There were still cars in the intersection (some making left turns) and he/she was already accelerating---failing to yield to traffic. The other car (the one that is coming from the left that is involved in the collision) is clearly in the intersection already before THEIR light turns red. They didn't fail to stop at the red. Rather, the dash cam driver seems to assume that because he/she is facing a green light, they can simply proceed through the intersection. I wouldn't use the dash cam video----that could actually establish a careless driving charge!


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Re: Please help find who's fault is this (dash cam video)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:41 pm 
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Thanks for quick response. I was watching the video step by step and the second car didn't stop on red light. You can watch the back of the car. That's why I have noticed only one car turning left. The other red car closed my view, so I missed the other car. I have already send video to insurance company. As far as I know on yellow light you can proceed if it is safe to do so. She could hit pedestrians and you can watch them crossing the street. She was driving straight


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Re: Please help find who's fault is this (dash cam video)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:56 pm 
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The driver who enters the intersection under the red light is to blame.


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Re: Please help find who's fault is this (dash cam video)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:02 pm 
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From the 17 second mark, the crossover that is coming from the left is already in the intersection-----well before you are even in the intersection! Yes, the crossover should not have entered the intersection since it was certainly able to stop on the amber and may have even entered the intersection on the red (although the video doesn't definitively confirm that). But, even so, it doesn't negate the fact that the crossover was in the intersection for a whole 6 seconds (enough time for the vehicle ahead of you to make its right, and 2 vehicles ahead of the crossover to make their lefts on the red) before YOU even enter the intersection. Put simply , you proceeded through the intersection when not safe to do so. You had the ability to not enter the intersection because there was traffic (3 vehicles in the intersection) and yet YOU didn't wait----you chose to plow right through simply because the light was green for you.

Freeze your video at the 22 second mark and you'll see that before you even enter the intersection, the red pickup is directly in front of you making a left turn and the crossover is just waiting for the pickup to make its turn. That picture in and of itself shows that the intersection wasn't clear before you entered the intersection---therefore, not yielding to traffic.


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Re: Please help find who's fault is this (dash cam video)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:13 pm 
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You sent this video to your insurance??? I would love to hear the outcome... please keep us posted.


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Re: Please help find who's fault is this (dash cam video)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:15 pm 
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This is an interesting topic

Can someone point me to the exact sections of the HTA & Fault Determination Rules that discuss yielding right of way at a traffic signal controlled intersection? What section of the HTA is the OP guilty of?

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... .htm#BK250
Quote:
Vehicles interfering with traffic
(12) Despite the other provisions of this section, no person shall park or stand a vehicle on a highway in such a manner as to interfere with the movement of traffic or the clearing of snow from the highway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 170 (12).
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90h08_e.htm#BK221
Quote:
Amber light
(15) Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing a circular amber indication and facing the indication shall stop his or her vehicle if he or she can do so safely, otherwise he or she may proceed with caution. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (15).

The other vehicle was queued up behind the left turning Caravan. The question is why did the other vehicle enter the intersection against an amber light from a "dead stop"? That is illegal.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/e ... 0668_e.htm
Quote:
15. (1) This section applies with respect to an incident that occurs at an intersection with traffic signals. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 668, s. 15 (1).
(2) If the driver of automobile “B” fails to obey a traffic signal, the driver of automobile “A” is not at fault and the driver of automobile “B” is 100 per cent at fault for the incident. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 668, s. 15 (2).


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Re: Please help find who's fault is this (dash cam video)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:09 am 
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Thanks guy. I feel great support with your responses, even if I'm wrong I want to get some understanding.
Insurance company wasn't interested in video, but I insisted and send it to them. What I remember can be different from what happened.

I sent the video and then sent another small investigation of mine. Sorry for long message but I want to share with you:

1) If you go step by step through the video and catch each frame you will see that the second car wasn't in the intersection when the traffic light turned yellow. In http://i60.tinypic.com/w9hdfa.jpg the second car's back is visible and I marked it on the pic.
2) Entering an intersection on the yellow light is not allowed as long as you can't stop safely. Anyways she entered the intersection and the light had already turned red (http://i61.tinypic.com/wjgz2a.jpg). As you can see I saw only the front car and waited for it to clear the intersection.
3) Here is another step of the progress. My dash camera is at the front right side of me. It catches the moment but I don't have enough space to notice the car. http://i57.tinypic.com/jv163o.jpg
4) And the red car completely covers the view (http://i61.tinypic.com/261nnk5.jpg). I'm not able to see the car behind. When the light was green (for King street) the only car in the intersection was the one that turned left. And I think there is no other car.
5) And the http://i61.tinypic.com/9blsg8.jpg is the actual surprise.

My green light is starting from the 18th second of the video and we hit each other on 24th second. So she has 6 seconds of red light and she keeps crossing the intersection. As far as I know she can clear the intersection only when it is safe to do so. There could be some pedestrians crossing the street.

I can understand that there is part of my fault too. I need to drive defensively. But now I want to defend my insurance policy rates. And if the video shows I'm wrong, I'll accept that. Anyways you never know what to expect on the road.


Last edited by vahank on Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Please help find who's fault is this (dash cam video)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:16 am 
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One more thing. If you see the other car on dash cam video, trust me from drivers perspective it is not that obvious. You look one moment left, the car wasn't in intersection. You look right, then you look back red car blocking the view. And my position is different from camera position. It was possible to concentrate only on one side of the intersection. But I feel that my mistake that I didn't wait the red car to completely clear the intersection. And I'm not sure if it considered as a fault by law.


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Re: Please help find who's fault is this (dash cam video)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:08 am 
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Check out section 144(8)---even though the green light permits you to proceed, you must yield right of way to those using the intersection lawfully. No matter how you cut it, you simply didn't do that--especially to the red truck turning left.

The next issue is whether the Caravan was lawfully using the intersection. Arguably, the accident would not have happened had you not failed to yield. So, while she MAY have disobeyed the amber, 2 wrongs don't make it right---your wrong is what actually caused the accident. After all, had you simply waited for the intersection to clear, the accident would have been avoided. Under tort law, there are tons of cases that deal with 'causation' and 'foreseeability' and the 'but for' test..

The insurance fault rules likely won't help you out. If she disobeyed a signal, then she's 100% at fault---but remember, she can simply say it was not safe to stop on the amber. That is, she can raise doubt. On the other hand, your video presents undeniable proof that you DID proceed into the intersection while other cars were still in it making left turns (i.e. red truck). So, at best, you'll get 50-50 fault---but I suspect the courts will use common law tort rules on this scenario and allocate more fault to you---after all, the video really buries you and only creates potential against her.


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Re: Please help find who's fault is this (dash cam video)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:59 am 
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highwaystar,

Here is highway traffic act http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... 0h08_f.htm, where I have located 144 and I don't see anything about waiting to clear. What I see is

Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing a circular amber indication and facing the indication shall stop his or her vehicle if he or she can do so safely, otherwise he or she may proceed with caution. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (15).

Maybe there is another section where I should find it. I need to look more into it.

Anyways accident will not happen if she didn't cross the yellow light. I'm sure there is a fault on her side. She could hit pedestrians, crossing intersection so late is not right. Anyway I see her legal mistake, but I can't find mine


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Re: Please help find who's fault is this (dash cam video)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:29 am 
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Subsection 8 tells:

"When under this section a driver is permitted to proceed, he or she shall yield the right of way to traffic lawfully using an intersection or, where traffic control signals are erected where a private road or driveway meets a highway, lawfully using the area controlled by the traffic control signals."

It doesn't tell wait to clear. In this case the other driver didn't obey signal and I moved in on my signal.


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Re: Please help find who's fault is this (dash cam video)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:20 am 
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vahank wrote:
Subsection 8 tells:

"When under this section a driver is permitted to proceed, he or she shall yield the right of way to traffic lawfully using an intersection or, where traffic control signals are erected where a private road or driveway meets a highway, lawfully using the area controlled by the traffic control signals."

It doesn't tell wait to clear. In this case the other driver didn't obey signal and I moved in on my signal.


That means the cars that were already in the intersection have right of way that does not pass to you until they clear it.


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Re: Please help find who's fault is this (dash cam video)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:41 am 
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ynotp wrote:
That means the cars that were already in the intersection have right of way that does not pass to you until they clear it.



The whole point is that she wasn't lawfully using intersection. Otherwise anybody can drive into intersection on red light and after that cars using green light will be responsible. Yellow light is equal to red light with exception that if you can't stop safely you can proceed. But she was stopped when the light was yellow and she proceeded.


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