Hi Everyone, So I was driving this morning to work at a new location in Toronto. I made a left turn into a street and a police officer was there waiting. He informed me you cannot make left turns between 7-9am. I told him I did not see or notice any sign. I have a clean driving record and never got a ticket before. Nonetheless, he hit me with a disobey sign ticket ( 182.2). I went back to the location and noticed the sign is merged with a bus stop sign-they are literally on the same pole! Can I argue that a bus was blocking my view? I got pictures with the intersection and a bus parked there blocking the view of the sign. Do you think this could stand a chance? I really dont want to mess up my record. Thank you in advance!
Hi Everyone,
So I was driving this morning to work at a new location in Toronto. I made a left turn into a street and a police officer was there waiting. He informed me you cannot make left turns between 7-9am. I told him I did not see or notice any sign. I have a clean driving record and never got a ticket before. Nonetheless, he hit me with a disobey sign ticket ( 182.2). I went back to the location and noticed the sign is merged with a bus stop sign-they are literally on the same pole! Can I argue that a bus was blocking my view? I got pictures with the intersection and a bus parked there blocking the view of the sign.
Do you think this could stand a chance? I really dont want to mess up my record.
http://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900615#BK6 45. A sign prescribed by this Regulation, other than a sign prescribed by section 13, 14, 15, 24, 25, 26 or 27, shall be so placed as to be visible at all times for a distance of at least 60 metres to the traffic approaching the sign. O. Reg. 175/08, s. 15. The way I read the regulation is that if the sign is visible from 60 meters away then it is valid. So if you can prove this is the case because from 200 feet away a bus still blocks view of the sign then go for it. But don't assume that the sign should be visible from 60 to 0 metres at all times, though I might try to insert it into my argument that the regulation implies this as well. (If the law says it must be placed so you are able to see it from 60 metres away then logic dictates the closer you get then the better you should be able to see it.) The sign being mounted close to a bus stop sign is not relevant unless the other sign blocked the view.
45. A sign prescribed by this Regulation, other than a sign prescribed by section 13, 14, 15, 24, 25, 26 or 27, shall be so placed as to be visible at all times for a distance of at least 60 metres to the traffic approaching the sign. O. Reg. 175/08, s. 15.
The way I read the regulation is that if the sign is visible from 60 meters away then it is valid. So if you can prove this is the case because from 200 feet away a bus still blocks view of the sign then go for it. But don't assume that the sign should be visible from 60 to 0 metres at all times, though I might try to insert it into my argument that the regulation implies this as well. (If the law says it must be placed so you are able to see it from 60 metres away then logic dictates the closer you get then the better you should be able to see it.)
The sign being mounted close to a bus stop sign is not relevant unless the other sign blocked the view.
Are you really going to say that you didn't have a clear view of the full intersection (because a bus was blocking your view) yet you decided to make a left turn anyway? That won't cut it----the act is all that needs to be proven; not your intention to disobey the sign. The court will simply say that you should have waited to have a better view before proceeding. That's what a reasonable driver would do. Now, if the view of the sign was obstructed because of something more permanent (e.g. large tree, weeds, another sign, etc.) or a the bus had broken down, you might have a defense because there was nothing you could do to see the sign. In your case, all you had to do was wait a few more seconds for the bus to proceed and then things would clear up.
Are you really going to say that you didn't have a clear view of the full intersection (because a bus was blocking your view) yet you decided to make a left turn anyway? That won't cut it----the act is all that needs to be proven; not your intention to disobey the sign. The court will simply say that you should have waited to have a better view before proceeding. That's what a reasonable driver would do. Now, if the view of the sign was obstructed because of something more permanent (e.g. large tree, weeds, another sign, etc.) or a the bus had broken down, you might have a defense because there was nothing you could do to see the sign.
In your case, all you had to do was wait a few more seconds for the bus to proceed and then things would clear up.
Worst-case scenario you could try plea-bargaining to a lesser offence with a lower fine... that should be available to you since you had a clean record...
Worst-case scenario you could try plea-bargaining to a lesser offence with a lower fine... that should be available to you since you had a clean record...
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
Thank you I was looking for the law stating it must be visible. The main point I wanted to argue is that is not visible at all times as buses can stop and block the view. I have pictures of a bus passing right by the sign and you cannot see the sign at all.
45. A sign prescribed by this Regulation, other than a sign prescribed by section 13, 14, 15, 24, 25, 26 or 27, shall be so placed as to be visible at all times for a distance of at least 60 metres to the traffic approaching the sign. O. Reg. 175/08, s. 15.
The way I read the regulation is that if the sign is visible from 60 meters away then it is valid. So if you can prove this is the case because from 200 feet away a bus still blocks view of the sign then go for it. But don't assume that the sign should be visible from 60 to 0 metres at all times, though I might try to insert it into my argument that the regulation implies this as well. (If the law says it must be placed so you are able to see it from 60 metres away then logic dictates the closer you get then the better you should be able to see it.)
The sign being mounted close to a bus stop sign is not relevant unless the other sign blocked the view.
Thank you I was looking for the law stating it must be visible. The main point I wanted to argue is that is not visible at all times as buses can stop and block the view. I have pictures of a bus passing right by the sign and you cannot see the sign at all.
I think you may have misunderstood: I checked the bus times and a bus stops there EXACTLY one minute before I got stopped-so I have scheduled evidence a bus was stopped there. I was not arguing that the bus blocked my entire view of the intersection. I was saying the sign is not visible at all times because a bus would have been blocking the sign in question. If a bus is in a bus lane and is stopped and no other cars are coming in your direction, you can make the turn. A reasonable driver does not wait for buses to pass to get a better view of signs they do not know exists. Wouldn't you agree?
highwaystar wrote:
Are you really going to say that you didn't have a clear view of the full intersection (because a bus was blocking your view) yet you decided to make a left turn anyway? That won't cut it----the act is all that needs to be proven; not your intention to disobey the sign. The court will simply say that you should have waited to have a better view before proceeding. That's what a reasonable driver would do. Now, if the view of the sign was obstructed because of something more permanent (e.g. large tree, weeds, another sign, etc.) or a the bus had broken down, you might have a defense because there was nothing you could do to see the sign.
In your case, all you had to do was wait a few more seconds for the bus to proceed and then things would clear up.
I think you may have misunderstood:
I checked the bus times and a bus stops there EXACTLY one minute before I got stopped-so I have scheduled evidence a bus was stopped there. I was not arguing that the bus blocked my entire view of the intersection. I was saying the sign is not visible at all times because a bus would have been blocking the sign in question. If a bus is in a bus lane and is stopped and no other cars are coming in your direction, you can make the turn. A reasonable driver does not wait for buses to pass to get a better view of signs they do not know exists. Wouldn't you agree?
I am going to speak with a prosecutor and weigh this option. I am leaning heavily towards this one.
Radar Identified wrote:
Worst-case scenario you could try plea-bargaining to a lesser offence with a lower fine... that should be available to you since you had a clean record...
I am going to speak with a prosecutor and weigh this option. I am leaning heavily towards this one.
That, unfortunately, is not a defence that the JP will accept. You might be able to get something like "fail to proceed as directed" or something of the sort. For turning offences such as this one, sometimes they offer the municipal by-law equivalent, although don't bet the farm on it.
shief24 wrote:
I was not arguing that the bus blocked my entire view of the intersection. I was saying the sign is not visible at all times because a bus would have been blocking the sign in question.
That, unfortunately, is not a defence that the JP will accept.
You might be able to get something like "fail to proceed as directed" or something of the sort. For turning offences such as this one, sometimes they offer the municipal by-law equivalent, although don't bet the farm on it.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
Just to clarify, if you were right behind a bus and the height of the bus made you unable to see the sign then you don't have a hope in hell as you should not have proceeded without having a clear understanding of the intersection. But if you were approaching the intersection (with no tall vehicle in front of you) and from 60 metres away the bus obstructs the sign then give it a shot, otherwise you need to find some other technicality or plea bargain.
Just to clarify, if you were right behind a bus and the height of the bus made you unable to see the sign then you don't have a hope in hell as you should not have proceeded without having a clear understanding of the intersection. But if you were approaching the intersection (with no tall vehicle in front of you) and from 60 metres away the bus obstructs the sign then give it a shot, otherwise you need to find some other technicality or plea bargain.
Yup the bus and I were on different sides. I was approaching the lane and the bus was stopped on the other side, blocking the sign. The bus would have been coming towards me if it hadn't been stopped and I had the clear way to proceed with the left turn and no one was in front of me.
ynotp wrote:
Just to clarify, if you were right behind a bus and the height of the bus made you unable to see the sign then you don't have a hope in hell as you should not have proceeded without having a clear understanding of the intersection. But if you were approaching the intersection (with no tall vehicle in front of you) and from 60 metres away the bus obstructs the sign then give it a shot, otherwise you need to find some other technicality or plea bargain.
Yup the bus and I were on different sides. I was approaching the lane and the bus was stopped on the other side, blocking the sign. The bus would have been coming towards me if it hadn't been stopped and I had the clear way to proceed with the left turn and no one was in front of me.
Hi so I have a bizzare situation. Today I received a summons for "being the owner of a motor vehicle bearing Vehicle Identification Number ###, failed to submit the vehicle, equipment or drawn vehicle for inspection or tests as required by an officer" for a vehicle I previously owned. Apparently a violation of HTA 82(9).
The date of offense is June 15, the summons was issued on October 26th and I…
Hi, I need some help for the ticket of lmproper left turn.
When i drove my car from east to west, intending to make a left turn and stop in front of stop line. There was a car in front of me, which has turn on yellow light. The light was turning red and then I thought I cannot leave in the intersection and turned, an incoming car was runing the light and hit me. No one got hurt but both cars had…
Have a ticket in which the radar used was a Genesis VP Directional. I had downloaded the manual for a Genesis VP but I now realize that the unit is not the same so it is the wrong manual. My trial is very soon so I do not have time to ask for disclosure of the manual.
Does anyone have access to an electronic version of the manual for Genesis VP Directional?
I was pulled over today in the city of Oakville for going 75 in a 40 zone. However, I am 100 percent certain that I was going only 50 in the 40 zone. When I was pulled over, I was driving my Dad's car which I felt was the reason I was getting stopped since two teenagers driving a 2013 S Class. He asked does I know why I am being pulled over and I…
I really need help on fighting my 9 tickets i received from one police officer. Here is some background of what happened!
I was caught speeding 66km on a 40km (school zone) on January 29, 2010. I was driving my friend's car and turns out she didnt renew the validation on the vehicle and didnt leave the up to date insurance paper on the car.
Hey question that I think here's probably the best place to get the answer:
I was charged with a careless driving offence in oct, trail in early april, so as of right now my insurance record is 100% clean... except the officer did file an accident report at the scene where I was classified at fault due to it being PI (although very minor). The person I hit did not sue etc, so the insurance company…
Very much unintentionally passed a stopped bus, with sign and flashing lights. Didn't realize I had done it until I was at the end of the bus. I'll save you my sob story, but it was truly accidental. I'm generally very cautious and have a perfect driving record. Never been stopped.
While I realize if a cop had seen me that I would have gotten a ticket, there were none in sight. Though I may very…
I was recently pulled over for running a red and I wasnt able to find my wallet in the car at the time to hand over my license. I had a passport in the vehicle that he used. The wallet was in the vehicle, it just fell through the seats. (Tough to find a black leather wallet in a black/black leather truck at night).
The officer still wrote the tickets for both he signed the one ticket (failure to…
I was passing a vehicle that was going slow for me and there was an oncoming vehicle coming at me. I speed up to get around the person I was passing and the oncoming vehicle turns out to be a cop who turns around and tickets me for going 110km in a 80km zone. How does it work with passing a vehicle? Once I passed the vehicle I went back down to my original speed of just under 100. The officer…
I picked up a brand new (old stock) Fuzzbuster a while ago at auction (wopping $5!!) and I want to mount it on the dash of my old GTO as a cool accessory when I show it at car shows. But I'm not sure if it's legal or not.
Here's my thoughts:
- It is early 70's technology (x-band) so it won't detect modern police radar. That's assuming no police force uses the old x-band frequency.
Hi guys, I'm still a little in shock of getting my first traffic ticket...
On Monday afternoon, I was returning from Toronto to Ottawa on HW416, I was driving about 15 over 100 like always. Then a car came very close to me on the left lane and made me nervous, I speed up unintentionally to pass the car and change lane, but while doing that a police car pull out of the median. He was hiding in…
May i ask this question regarding transport trucks limited to 105 km/h. Moving road blocks or safety?
IMO it isnt speed that kills. I find transport trucks infact help keep the road going. With cars that choose to not move to the right and slow down the middle lane the trucks would try to pass in their passing lane therefore the slower traffic would move right.
Received a notice from the police that a motion is being put forward to adjourn upcoming trial date. Notice indicates that an officer has sworn an affidavit that the crucial witness cannot attend date trial is set for (we know there is a social engagement at 7:30 pm for the witness, trial time is 1:30 pm). This further delay is a big problem to my daughter's case. She is moving away to…
This is what happened. I was travelling west on a four lane city street that was very light with traffic. I was making a left hand turn into a wide driveway of a business. There was traffic lights about 100 yards past the driveway and were red for the east-west traffic. I was in the left lane with my signal on and there was no oncoming traffic due to the red light. I was slowed right down…
I was driving my families older car and got pulled over, and the police officer informed me my plate was dirty. He issued me a ticket of $110 for the 13(2) act and obstruct plate as the offense. He informed me that such a plate could be used to avoid red lights as well as 407 tolls, also that buying a new plate can help to lower the ticket if I fight the charge, and that he also took a picture…
I received a red light camera ticket. In the picture, you see an ambulance in front of me with flashing lights. I had moved to alleviate the traffic behind me for the emergency vehicles coming behind it.
Is this a possible defense, if so, does anyone know any good case law to justify this position?
what happens if they charge someone for driving at 151Km/hr in montreal and they put for trial, appear after some months and sadly lost the trial ?
In montreal its $300 fine and 5demerit points ...
I heard Ontario and Qubec share the information. So once the trial is over ( and when the file moved to ontario) will his car gets towed and licence get suspended for 7days (later to 30 days ) ? and he…
I got a notice in the mail that trial is set four weeks from today, so it's time to request disclosure. I have zero chance of getting an 11b since trial is less than two months after the offense date and the officer did not reduce the charge. I really want to try and create delays on the trial, to reduce the chance of the officer showing up on multiple occasions. Is there any known loop-holes…
This weekend my father was involved in an accident with a transit bus in Burlington, ON. After the police showed up he was charged with "Fail to obey stop sign" Sec. 136(1)(a). At this particular intersection there NO stop signs but there are traffic lights. There is construction going on there so one of the light posts is smaller.
Driving conditions were terribly wet and visibility was low.…
So my boyfriend and I recently started dating. I have a vehicle that was insured. Insurance cost too much and I found it was just as easy to walk to work due to how close it was. But I didn't want to get rid of my car just yet, plus I'm still making payments on it as well. When we moved into our appartment together, I had it towed to my parking spot out back.
I was making a left hand legal turn on a green light, a driver came through the lane I was supposed to be going into ran the red and hit me head on as I was turning into my lane. When the officer came he was telling me that I was racing and driving recklessly because apparently there was reports of street racing in the area. I was not charged on the scene for this but I'm scared i am going to be…
I got a ticket for failure to surrender insurance because I did not have my new insurance stubs with me, just a bunch of expired ones. My policy number has not changed, so I asked the officer to just run the policy number so I could prove that I was in fact insured. He said they don't have that ability, handed me the ticket and reminded me that my car could have been impounded.
So I'm in a bit of a pickle and would appreciate if someone could clarify something for me.
I'm less than a month away (test on April 6th) from getting my full G license, and got a speeding ticket recently. The ticket was for 49km/h over the posted limit of 100km/h on the 403 in Oakville/Halton region, but was reduced from the initial ~60km/h over.
