Hi Everyone, So I was driving this morning to work at a new location in Toronto. I made a left turn into a street and a police officer was there waiting. He informed me you cannot make left turns between 7-9am. I told him I did not see or notice any sign. I have a clean driving record and never got a ticket before. Nonetheless, he hit me with a disobey sign ticket ( 182.2). I went back to the location and noticed the sign is merged with a bus stop sign-they are literally on the same pole! Can I argue that a bus was blocking my view? I got pictures with the intersection and a bus parked there blocking the view of the sign. Do you think this could stand a chance? I really dont want to mess up my record. Thank you in advance!
Hi Everyone,
So I was driving this morning to work at a new location in Toronto. I made a left turn into a street and a police officer was there waiting. He informed me you cannot make left turns between 7-9am. I told him I did not see or notice any sign. I have a clean driving record and never got a ticket before. Nonetheless, he hit me with a disobey sign ticket ( 182.2). I went back to the location and noticed the sign is merged with a bus stop sign-they are literally on the same pole! Can I argue that a bus was blocking my view? I got pictures with the intersection and a bus parked there blocking the view of the sign.
Do you think this could stand a chance? I really dont want to mess up my record.
http://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900615#BK6 45. A sign prescribed by this Regulation, other than a sign prescribed by section 13, 14, 15, 24, 25, 26 or 27, shall be so placed as to be visible at all times for a distance of at least 60 metres to the traffic approaching the sign. O. Reg. 175/08, s. 15. The way I read the regulation is that if the sign is visible from 60 meters away then it is valid. So if you can prove this is the case because from 200 feet away a bus still blocks view of the sign then go for it. But don't assume that the sign should be visible from 60 to 0 metres at all times, though I might try to insert it into my argument that the regulation implies this as well. (If the law says it must be placed so you are able to see it from 60 metres away then logic dictates the closer you get then the better you should be able to see it.) The sign being mounted close to a bus stop sign is not relevant unless the other sign blocked the view.
45. A sign prescribed by this Regulation, other than a sign prescribed by section 13, 14, 15, 24, 25, 26 or 27, shall be so placed as to be visible at all times for a distance of at least 60 metres to the traffic approaching the sign. O. Reg. 175/08, s. 15.
The way I read the regulation is that if the sign is visible from 60 meters away then it is valid. So if you can prove this is the case because from 200 feet away a bus still blocks view of the sign then go for it. But don't assume that the sign should be visible from 60 to 0 metres at all times, though I might try to insert it into my argument that the regulation implies this as well. (If the law says it must be placed so you are able to see it from 60 metres away then logic dictates the closer you get then the better you should be able to see it.)
The sign being mounted close to a bus stop sign is not relevant unless the other sign blocked the view.
Are you really going to say that you didn't have a clear view of the full intersection (because a bus was blocking your view) yet you decided to make a left turn anyway? That won't cut it----the act is all that needs to be proven; not your intention to disobey the sign. The court will simply say that you should have waited to have a better view before proceeding. That's what a reasonable driver would do. Now, if the view of the sign was obstructed because of something more permanent (e.g. large tree, weeds, another sign, etc.) or a the bus had broken down, you might have a defense because there was nothing you could do to see the sign. In your case, all you had to do was wait a few more seconds for the bus to proceed and then things would clear up.
Are you really going to say that you didn't have a clear view of the full intersection (because a bus was blocking your view) yet you decided to make a left turn anyway? That won't cut it----the act is all that needs to be proven; not your intention to disobey the sign. The court will simply say that you should have waited to have a better view before proceeding. That's what a reasonable driver would do. Now, if the view of the sign was obstructed because of something more permanent (e.g. large tree, weeds, another sign, etc.) or a the bus had broken down, you might have a defense because there was nothing you could do to see the sign.
In your case, all you had to do was wait a few more seconds for the bus to proceed and then things would clear up.
Worst-case scenario you could try plea-bargaining to a lesser offence with a lower fine... that should be available to you since you had a clean record...
Worst-case scenario you could try plea-bargaining to a lesser offence with a lower fine... that should be available to you since you had a clean record...
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
Thank you I was looking for the law stating it must be visible. The main point I wanted to argue is that is not visible at all times as buses can stop and block the view. I have pictures of a bus passing right by the sign and you cannot see the sign at all.
45. A sign prescribed by this Regulation, other than a sign prescribed by section 13, 14, 15, 24, 25, 26 or 27, shall be so placed as to be visible at all times for a distance of at least 60 metres to the traffic approaching the sign. O. Reg. 175/08, s. 15.
The way I read the regulation is that if the sign is visible from 60 meters away then it is valid. So if you can prove this is the case because from 200 feet away a bus still blocks view of the sign then go for it. But don't assume that the sign should be visible from 60 to 0 metres at all times, though I might try to insert it into my argument that the regulation implies this as well. (If the law says it must be placed so you are able to see it from 60 metres away then logic dictates the closer you get then the better you should be able to see it.)
The sign being mounted close to a bus stop sign is not relevant unless the other sign blocked the view.
Thank you I was looking for the law stating it must be visible. The main point I wanted to argue is that is not visible at all times as buses can stop and block the view. I have pictures of a bus passing right by the sign and you cannot see the sign at all.
I think you may have misunderstood: I checked the bus times and a bus stops there EXACTLY one minute before I got stopped-so I have scheduled evidence a bus was stopped there. I was not arguing that the bus blocked my entire view of the intersection. I was saying the sign is not visible at all times because a bus would have been blocking the sign in question. If a bus is in a bus lane and is stopped and no other cars are coming in your direction, you can make the turn. A reasonable driver does not wait for buses to pass to get a better view of signs they do not know exists. Wouldn't you agree?
highwaystar wrote:
Are you really going to say that you didn't have a clear view of the full intersection (because a bus was blocking your view) yet you decided to make a left turn anyway? That won't cut it----the act is all that needs to be proven; not your intention to disobey the sign. The court will simply say that you should have waited to have a better view before proceeding. That's what a reasonable driver would do. Now, if the view of the sign was obstructed because of something more permanent (e.g. large tree, weeds, another sign, etc.) or a the bus had broken down, you might have a defense because there was nothing you could do to see the sign.
In your case, all you had to do was wait a few more seconds for the bus to proceed and then things would clear up.
I think you may have misunderstood:
I checked the bus times and a bus stops there EXACTLY one minute before I got stopped-so I have scheduled evidence a bus was stopped there. I was not arguing that the bus blocked my entire view of the intersection. I was saying the sign is not visible at all times because a bus would have been blocking the sign in question. If a bus is in a bus lane and is stopped and no other cars are coming in your direction, you can make the turn. A reasonable driver does not wait for buses to pass to get a better view of signs they do not know exists. Wouldn't you agree?
I am going to speak with a prosecutor and weigh this option. I am leaning heavily towards this one.
Radar Identified wrote:
Worst-case scenario you could try plea-bargaining to a lesser offence with a lower fine... that should be available to you since you had a clean record...
I am going to speak with a prosecutor and weigh this option. I am leaning heavily towards this one.
That, unfortunately, is not a defence that the JP will accept. You might be able to get something like "fail to proceed as directed" or something of the sort. For turning offences such as this one, sometimes they offer the municipal by-law equivalent, although don't bet the farm on it.
shief24 wrote:
I was not arguing that the bus blocked my entire view of the intersection. I was saying the sign is not visible at all times because a bus would have been blocking the sign in question.
That, unfortunately, is not a defence that the JP will accept.
You might be able to get something like "fail to proceed as directed" or something of the sort. For turning offences such as this one, sometimes they offer the municipal by-law equivalent, although don't bet the farm on it.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
Just to clarify, if you were right behind a bus and the height of the bus made you unable to see the sign then you don't have a hope in hell as you should not have proceeded without having a clear understanding of the intersection. But if you were approaching the intersection (with no tall vehicle in front of you) and from 60 metres away the bus obstructs the sign then give it a shot, otherwise you need to find some other technicality or plea bargain.
Just to clarify, if you were right behind a bus and the height of the bus made you unable to see the sign then you don't have a hope in hell as you should not have proceeded without having a clear understanding of the intersection. But if you were approaching the intersection (with no tall vehicle in front of you) and from 60 metres away the bus obstructs the sign then give it a shot, otherwise you need to find some other technicality or plea bargain.
Yup the bus and I were on different sides. I was approaching the lane and the bus was stopped on the other side, blocking the sign. The bus would have been coming towards me if it hadn't been stopped and I had the clear way to proceed with the left turn and no one was in front of me.
ynotp wrote:
Just to clarify, if you were right behind a bus and the height of the bus made you unable to see the sign then you don't have a hope in hell as you should not have proceeded without having a clear understanding of the intersection. But if you were approaching the intersection (with no tall vehicle in front of you) and from 60 metres away the bus obstructs the sign then give it a shot, otherwise you need to find some other technicality or plea bargain.
Yup the bus and I were on different sides. I was approaching the lane and the bus was stopped on the other side, blocking the sign. The bus would have been coming towards me if it hadn't been stopped and I had the clear way to proceed with the left turn and no one was in front of me.
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