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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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Red light camera photographs
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:27 am 
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Are they required to have a clear location imprinted on the photo? I remember seeing some case within this forum, that was appealed and won due to this defect. But i cannot find anymore stuff online. Any help with this is appreciated. I think it happened in Waterloo Region where my ticket is from.

I have other points which support unsafe to stop, but that will probably fall under speculation not evidence... Even though I would love to see how they could prove that in my situation it was safe to stop. 325 bucks is way to much for that offence, especially the "victim surcharge" which i would like to be compensated for seeing as i feel i am a victim of the red light scams!!! My car is heavy, and I normally feel that slamming on the brake everytime the light changes yellow, is not safe. The time is only 4 seconds according to the ticket and I operate a vehicle that has a gross weight of 4700-5000 lbs at any given time. Safe stopping distance and time is greatly increased i think.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:21 am 
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Since there is no demerit points to the owner the fine should be much higher (around $500). Intersection "T-bone" collisions are one of the most severe collisions that can happen.

50km/hr = 13.89m/sec = stopping distance of 14.05m = 1 second to stop
60km/hr = 16.68m/sec = stopping distance of 20.23m = 1.2 second to stop

Intersection: 8m wide (2lane) 16m (4lane)

5000lb = 2272kg which is less than most standard fullsize pickups on the road

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:18 am 
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Okay, with all due respect, are you one of the one-sided technical types who I am going to be glad to disappoint when I quash this so-called "offense"?

So, if I was a perfectly programmed robot I may be able to achieve those one-sided exact calculations. Problem is that I am human. Humans are plagued with something called reaction-time, which on average regarding amber light signals can be around 1.2 to 1.5 seconds. With an amber light set at 4 seconds, one traveling 50km per hour, has about 182ft worth of stopping distance vs time to stop. Now, subtract the 1.5 seconds for reaction and action time, you now have only 2.5 seconds to stop. Therefore you have a distance around 113.75ft to stop. The average stopping distance for a car traveling at 50km per hour is between 109-115ft (I already mentioned mine is above average in weight). Therefore, one who meets a yellow light at that exact distance, would not have enough distance or it'd pretty close to not having enough distance to safely stop. Add 4 people and luggage in already heavy car, and I think it is fair to say that an experienced one may not feel safe stopping their car based in that visual distance.

{Would have I been traveling (the already tough to stop at offense speed) of 50km/h? Probably not, I tend to drive over by 5-10...sometimes 15. Oh and did I mention this was a downhill intersection too? According to the ticket I definitely was not going 50km when entering the intersection, which may have been due to the fact that since I didn't have time to stop, I increased speed to avoid risk of any red-light infraction. This makes it even harder for me to have conformed to the safe- stopping distance. Therefore unsafe to stop... I would even be willing to take a conviction of speeding by 10 over in the zone than this ridiculous $325 charge.}

Additionally, eyes are not fixated on signal lights at ALL times when approaching intersections, to me that would be more of an offense, seeing as I am supposed to check mirrors and my surroundings constantly. So with all that, and for those who witness a red light camera warning sign, they have quite the decision to make, and instead of having someone ram their car from behind, they may actually speed up to avoid a ticket. Oh and my car is notorious for having rear gas tank explosions if hit, so I must consider that too.

According to the document I crossed the red-light with less than a second (0.9) of the signal appearing, therefore no one who was following rules was in danger as the light would not have even changed green for the perpendicular flow of traffic. So no one (obeying all laws) should have been in danger, like they would have been had I tried to slam on the brakes with a heavy car, 4 occupants and luggage and patches of water on the road, not to mention cracks and lumps that the government doesn't fix which is clearly visual in the photo.

I think that for a fine of $325 bucks, one better be pulled over by a police officer, who was there to monitor the situation, not a camera timed to shoot a picture, if a car passes a sensor. not a camera and system that could quite very well have malfunctioned and had a shortened yellow light. Do you expect people to believe amber was 4 seconds just from a print-out I received in the mail?

I should-time this light, and if shortened and not inline with "offense" file a counter-suit for wrongly accused or entrapment.

And again, prove that for any red light camera victim that they should have felt it safe to stop, a photograph cannot prove what the human factor conditions were at the time. (Unless of course, and for example,there is a truck up their cars backside).

A yellow light's timing should only be deemed safe if it follows two criteria:
1. A car in a "perfect" situation can pass the light at the published speed without it changing to red. Which due to calculations this light if at 4 seconds passed.

2. A car can safely stop in the minimum distance (about 113ft in this case with reaction time considered) which is pretty damn close to saying no margin for error. I don't believe 4 seconds at minimum distance is enough to safely allow cars to stop.

And if you want to stop "T" Bone accidents, lengthen yellow lights, and increase signal switch-over time. Don't threatening drivers with a $325 fine, which I always see cause drivers to slam on breaks, or floor it through the intersection.

Thank you for the comments, but I would like to know if anyone knows the answer to my original question about the location not being clear on the photograph. Thanks again to all! :P

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:08 pm 
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Okay so I got my answer... :)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:54 pm 
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I am not technical type, however do know some stuff and was just giving you a kind "heads-up" for whatever your decision is with information that you might need (ie: car is not heavier than a standard pickup, distances travelled at certain speeds and stopping distances)

Switching measurements in court would also be a bad idea if you want the JP to understand your side better (stay with all metric calculations as that is how the HTA is written)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:15 pm 
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Thank you for the heads up on the conversion. When a major fine is imposed without demerit points, it seems more aimed at being a cash grab. We are mislead to believe that the cameras prevent accidents or even the more serious ones. For instance, why should the owner of a car be subject to a $325 fine without proof of operation? Gee maybe police should ticket the"car" for speeding when that offense is committed. My defense, using evidence of published statistics is that given the timing of the yellow light, I would have ended up in the intersection had I attempted a safe stop, therefore it was not safe to come to a complete stop prior to the intersection. As a very experienced driver, getting close to 800000kms in my lifetime so far, I have a good idea of how much distance I need to safely stop at a yellow. I would figure that with numbers to back me up I have evidence to support my decision that it wasn't safe to stop (road condition, timing of amber light, human reaction time). 0.9 seconds was the timing for the light on. Pretty close if you ask me.

Do you know from any experience if the JP can issue demerit points if you fight and lose? It is my understanding that those cannot be issued with camera ticket claims, but I would put anything past these guys.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:19 pm 
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Oh an my car is over 4050 pounds base weight, and with added weight of 4 persons, almost 700 pounds (me alone 6'5 290lbs), plus trunk luggage puts my car at close to 4700-5000lbs. A Ford 150 standard weight seems to be 4000-7000. So my car kinda fits that category :) :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:18 pm 
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offendedbyoffences wrote:
Do you know from any experience if the JP can issue demerit points if you fight and lose? It is my understanding that those cannot be issued with camera ticket claims, but I would put anything past these guys.


Points have nothing to do with courts.
Points are only added by the MTO when a conviction is registered and via section of the convicted, which is listed in the legislatio for demerit points. Which is HTA Ontario Regulation 339/94.

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