I was charged for disobey sign (no left turn) in a winter noon time around Bay/Edward (the prosecutor/judge said it to be a Absolute liability offences but disobey sign is actually a strict liability offence, right? And I found this: For example, if you made an illegal left-turn where there were signs clearly marking this fact, saying you didn't know or didn't see the sign will not save you. However, if the sign was physically not present (removed or obscured), then the fact that the sign was not present/clear could save you from being convicted.. does weather condition can be the reason??) I went to court (my original date) yesterday and didnt get the trial… Detail one: The judge asked me directly (before trial, they are trying to talk me out of trial, which they consider waste of their time) that "did you make the turn or not" at that point I quoted "human right of on one should be forced to test against himself" (Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms 11(c) and 13 )but the judge said he didnt want to hear about human right in this court (non criminal charge) and repeated twice the same question, which I responded at the end that I refused to answer it, and one time the judge threaten that I showed disrespect to court and he could put me to jail. And he then moved on to give me a new court date which is 3 days later even with my objection that I wont be available that day (well, now I have to, as he said the trial will go on regardless) Question: 1. Was he fair? Does the 11(c) and 13 or 11(b) apply to traffic violation (not criminal case) 2. Did I have the right to not answer the judges question (not prosecutors question) like that? 3. What can I use from this for my next trial? 4. Can I ask for another court date when I do show up on the day the judge dictated (which is now 2 days later) and the fact was I was denied trial on my original court date bcs the uncalm judge refused (or couldnt, as he asked me that question) to proceed with trial although all parties were ready, if I ask, what are the reasons I can quote? 5. can I say I was suffered being treated with prejudice from previous judge and if so, what chapter right section I should quote on and what effect it might be? Detail two: I asked and received disclosure however the writing is like chicken scratch and I cannot be sure what I didnt recognize, so I asked for a typed version, which I never received, when I point it out in court, the judge said the police doesnt even need to provide his note and the officers copy of the ticket is good enough, and when I say I did received the notes but it is not fully recognizable, the judge said that is ALL I can get, nothing else. Question: 1. Did he deny my rights to be informed about evidence against me and in a not-fully-understandable format? 2. What can I use from this for my next trial 3. Can I motion to A) dismiss the case as no typed copy being given, or B) insist for a typed copy and have it ready within 8 months from Jan xx, which is 1.5 months away? (if motion allowed and the new court date being over 8 months – assuming the cop will provide typed version, can I then motion for 11b chapter rights being violated by next court date?) Detail three: In the note the officer indicated that he was working with another officer for that setup. When I challenged the other cop didnt show up, the cop said he himself charged me and the other cop charged other driver, and only he is needed to present in court for my case. Question: is that true? They setup video cameras (didnt see him bring tape to court) and he deliberately disclosed that there was another officer. Detail four: The note actually was a summary for the whole day event (my charge was 12:40pm and the note was a summary from noon-ish to 8pm and he indicated they stop the activity around 5pm, so apparently the note was not recorded at scene. And has nothing specifically for my case, only in second page, there is vague mentioning there is writing like WM black xxxxx(unrecognizable) 8 seconds delay left turn signal on… but still nothing in detail about if that is my car or not. Question: What can I use from this? Does notes wrote 7 hours afterwards can be used as evidence? Detail five: I took picture on the offence day through the windshield from drivers seat in the lane that I turned left, the pictures show the SW sign and to be honest first you can hardly notice the sign, the intersection is 4x4 lane (2 lane on each direction for both roads) and there was no traffic light just poles on the corner of intersections. And it was quite dark even it was noonish and with the flurries and water drips on windshield, I honestly dont think anyone can make the sign (7am-7pm Mon-Fri) out from almost 3 lanes distance (2 lane on both sides or triangle, the third side is around 2.8 lane width) around 14 meters far (45 feet), in such a big intersection (like in Bay/Elm, there is full traffic light set should be used, when the no left turn sign being beside the red/green light, and hanging over the street, it is much easier to be recognized. prosecutor basically disregarded the fact that the signs were hard to recognize, esp. the small prints show the time in effect, even his own experience agree that it is hard. Question: How shall I present my concern around signs not clearly displayed in that particular weather/light conditions? That might be my only real argument due to the fact that the signs ARE there and regardless you can see it or not, making left turn during forbidden time is an offence… 11. Any person charged with an offence has the right (a) to be informed without unreasonable delay of the specific offence; (b) to be tried within a reasonable time; (c) not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence; (d) to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal; (e) not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause; (f) except in the case of an offence under military law tried before a military tribunal, to the benefit of trial by jury where the maximum punishment for the offence is imprisonment for five years or a more severe punishment; (g) not to be found guilty on account of any act or omission unless, at the time of the act or omission, it constituted an offence under Canadian or international law or was criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations; (h) if finally acquitted of the offence, not to be tried for it again and, if finally found guilty and punished for the offence, not to be tried or punished for it again; and (i) if found guilty of the offence and if the punishment for the offence has been varied between the time of commission and the time of sentencing, to the benefit of the lesser punishment. Treatment or punishment 12. Everyone has the right not to be subjected to any cruel and unusual treatment or punishment. Self-crimination 13. A witness who testifies in any proceedings has the right not to have any incriminating evidence so given used to incriminate that witness in any other proceedings, except in a prosecution for perjury or for the giving of contradictory evidence.

Topic

Left turn, disobey sign. need help for Friday court!!!

by: zhulin_can on

16 Replies

zhulin_can
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I won

Just to close out the post I initiated: in the 3rd time in court, I won. Interpreter didn't show up (prosecutor forgot to book it) btw I won my other HOV lane ticket as well. Although they were all easy wins, but I was all prepared to goto trial and cross examine! Just they all backed off in front of me. I see some JP does love French language! special Thank you to radar identified, without your and other people's help and encouragement, I won't last until my luck finally finds me. :) Since I chose to fight every single ticket a couple of years ago. I have been winning 4 out of 4! Sharing below a couple of take-aways as a token of appreciation to the forum and fellow fighters: 1. Do obey all the traffic rules and signs! Even you win at last, you spent a lot of time/effort even some money preparing for it. It is not worthy. Do drive within speed limit. Do watch for all signs. Do drive safely. 2. If you do get a ticket, regardless what it might be. Go fight it in court. It absolutely worth it! At least you will learn a lot along the way. Radars, signs, rules, forums, legal agents, prosecutors, officers, JPs, translators... Those are all valuable knowledge. If you are prepared both stragitically and tactically, and you are lucky, you will protect your driving record and wallet. 3. In most no-injoury case, you don't need a paid legal agent. They don't do much more than you can do by yourself. They won't fight for your BEST interest just seeking slightly better then the original charge ( they won't risk their relationship with prosecutor, which they enjoy and live on) if you are not dumb, and work hard, you will do at least same as they do, if not better. 4. In most case, prosecutor is not giving you a good enough deal. They choose to be very mean in pre-court bargaining but quick to give up when any more effort from them is in need during court. (I still thank them for letting me off the hook easier than I prepared anyway) some of them are still human and reasonable when out of court. Don't take the bargain! My goal was no HTA charge, the only thing I would accept without fighting is municipality charge, which won't affect driving record and insurance. I won't mind paying for municipality fine to save everybody's time and be responsible for my driving mistakes. For insurance, HTA charge with no point. Is the SAME as with 3-4 points ( unless you have too many standing points, which if you pay attention when driving, you shouldn't have) so why take ANY HTA bargain? 5. Do use French Language Service Act as your defense. Although I was not given the chance to use it myself, but WHY NOT if you can! It makes sense! All laws should be treated with respect. Not only HTA, but also FLSA, reg 615, reg 620... Toronto government is lagging paying respect to them 20 years too late and still counting! 6.tactic: ask for French trial in the very beginning when applying for trial at very beginning (give you better chance to have a French sympatic JP, many English speaking JP doesn't care FLSA). AND if you can't speak French yourself, ask for a tranlator to your other language, Heck, you must know some foreign language as a torontonian, right? 7. Don't be enthusiastic lining up checking in with prosecutor before court starts, you know you are not getting a real deal, so why bother, just wait until the last minute. When nobody expects you show up (I won't point it very clear here as who you should avoid being noticed, I just say they would be instrumental in making the trial possible. If you are smart, you know who they are. If it is too obvious, pls. Let me know then I will make it less so :) 8. Prepare for the absolute worst, and prepare to avoid it from happening every defence of your way. Don't miss anything. Write it down, not just rely on your poor memory, it might work that well under pressure. 9. Once again. Pay more attention to your driving. Hope not need to goto court ever again. Be a good driver. I guess that is the point to have the law and law enforce system and court system in the first place. I have no problem with that, just they are too greedy now. I believe I am a better driver now. :) 10. Try learn some French. It is not that boring/disgusting, to the contrary, I have been learning French for 1 month, quite interesting. Then you have more reason to support FLSA! Hope this helps.

Just to close out the post I initiated:

in the 3rd time in court, I won. Interpreter didn't show up (prosecutor forgot to book it)

btw I won my other HOV lane ticket as well.

Although they were all easy wins, but I was all prepared to goto trial and cross examine! Just they all backed off in front of me. I see some JP does love French language!

special Thank you to radar identified, without your and other people's help and encouragement, I won't last until my luck finally finds me. :)

Since I chose to fight every single ticket a couple of years ago. I have been winning 4 out of 4!

Sharing below a couple of take-aways as a token of appreciation to the forum and fellow fighters:

1. Do obey all the traffic rules and signs! Even you win at last, you spent a lot of time/effort even some money preparing for it. It is not worthy. Do drive within speed limit. Do watch for all signs. Do drive safely.

2. If you do get a ticket, regardless what it might be. Go fight it in court. It absolutely worth it! At least you will learn a lot along the way. Radars, signs, rules, forums, legal agents, prosecutors, officers, JPs, translators... Those are all valuable knowledge. If you are prepared both stragitically and tactically, and you are lucky, you will protect your driving record and wallet.

3. In most no-injoury case, you don't need a paid legal agent. They don't do much more than you can do by yourself. They won't fight for your BEST interest just seeking slightly better then the original charge ( they won't risk their relationship with prosecutor, which they enjoy and live on) if you are not dumb, and work hard, you will do at least same as they do, if not better.

4. In most case, prosecutor is not giving you a good enough deal. They choose to be very mean in pre-court bargaining but quick to give up when any more effort from them is in need during court. (I still thank them for letting me off the hook easier than I prepared anyway) some of them are still human and reasonable when out of court. Don't take the bargain! My goal was no HTA charge, the only thing I would accept without fighting is municipality charge, which won't affect driving record and insurance. I won't mind paying for municipality fine to save everybody's time and be responsible for my driving mistakes. For insurance, HTA charge with no point. Is the SAME as with 3-4 points ( unless you have too many standing points, which if you pay attention when driving, you shouldn't have) so why take ANY HTA bargain?

5. Do use French Language Service Act as your defense. Although I was not given the chance to use it myself, but WHY NOT if you can! It makes sense! All laws should be treated with respect. Not only HTA, but also FLSA, reg 615, reg 620... Toronto government is lagging paying respect to them 20 years too late and still counting!

6.tactic: ask for French trial in the very beginning when applying for trial at very beginning (give you better chance to have a French sympatic JP, many English speaking JP doesn't care FLSA). AND if you can't speak French yourself, ask for a tranlator to your other language, Heck, you must know some foreign language as a torontonian, right?

7. Don't be enthusiastic lining up checking in with prosecutor before court starts, you know you are not getting a real deal, so why bother, just wait until the last minute. When nobody expects you show up (I won't point it very clear here as who you should avoid being noticed, I just say they would be instrumental in making the trial possible. If you are smart, you know who they are. If it is too obvious, pls. Let me know then I will make it less so :)

8. Prepare for the absolute worst, and prepare to avoid it from happening every defence of your way. Don't miss anything. Write it down, not just rely on your poor memory, it might work that well under pressure.

9. Once again. Pay more attention to your driving. Hope not need to goto court ever again. Be a good driver. I guess that is the point to have the law and law enforce system and court system in the first place. I have no problem with that, just they are too greedy now. I believe I am a better driver now. :)

10. Try learn some French. It is not that boring/disgusting, to the contrary, I have been learning French for 1 month, quite interesting. Then you have more reason to support FLSA!

Hope this helps.

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Radar Identified
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Re: Left turn, disobey sign. need help for Friday court!!!

Congrats! You're welcome, although I really didn't do much. You did all of the work. I only provided a few thoughts and opinions - that's pretty much it. Job well done on your part.

zhulin_can wrote:

Since I chose to fight every single ticket a couple of years ago. I have been winning 4 out of 4!

Congrats!

zhulin_can wrote:

special Thank you to radar identified, without your and other people's help and encouragement, I won't last until my luck finally finds me.

You're welcome, although I really didn't do much. You did all of the work. I only provided a few thoughts and opinions - that's pretty much it. Job well done on your part.

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