One of the most frequent tickets we get asked about on this forum is "Disobey Sign" of some sort. In many parts of Ontario, if the sign is not bilingual, there is a possibility that it may be challenged as invalid. This is because of O.Reg 615 (which sets the standard for road signs) requiring bilingual signs in a designated bilingual area, which was initially backed up by the R. v Myers case. A bilingual sign is either pictogram-only, or if it lists specific times when the sign is in effect, it says, for example "MON - FRI" and also "LUN - VEN." While it may seem rather strange that Toronto (which has 1.4% of the population as French-speaking but substantially larger populations that speak Mandarin, Cantonese, Hindi, Urdu, Vietnamese, Arabic, Tagalog, Italian, Greek, Portuguese, Spanish, etc) requires French signs, it is an option. It is not, however, bulletproof. Myers was appealed and the defendant pled guilty, so no precedent was set. If you wish to use this defence, you must state that O.Reg 615 requires bilingual road signs, and even though the municipality itself may not have committed to providing French services, the province of Ontario clearly has. As such, the ticket affects your provincial driving record and demerit points, so it is logical that the sign should be bilingual. Will they accept it? Maybe, maybe not. If, however, the sign is on a PROVINCIAL highway (e.g. 401, hwy 3, etc), then the sign must be bilingual. If you're wondering whether your city is a designated bilingual area, here is a list of the current designated bilingual areas, as of May 20, 2009: City of Toronto City of Mississauga City of Brampton City of Ottawa City of Hamiton (does NOT include the areas of Waterdown, Ancaster, Flamborough or Dundas) City of London City of Windsor City of Kingston City of Greater Sudbury and the District of Sudbury Regional Municipality of Niagara District of Algoma District of Cochrane District of Nipissing District of Timiskaming Township of Ignace Municipality of Callander County of Stormont County of Glengarry County of Russell County of Prescott County of Simcoe (Town of Penetanguishene, and the townships of Tiny and Essa only) County of Renfrew (Town of Pembroke, townships of Stafford and Westmeath only) District of Thunder Bay (Geraldton, Beardmore, Longlac, Marathon, Manitouwadge, Nakina and Terrace Bay) Essex County (Belle River, Tecumseh, Tilbury, Colchester North, Maidstone South, Sandwich West, Sandwich South, and Rochester only - but not Leamington, Amherstburg or Kingsville) If your ticket for disobey sign was in one of those regions, bilingual defence could be applied if the sign was not bilingual. However, the following are some examples of places that are NOT designated bilingual areas: Regional Municipality of York (Markham, Richmond Hill, Vaughan, Stouffville, Newmarket, Aurora, etc) Regional Municipality of Durham (Oshawa, Whitby, Ajax, Pickering) Regional Municipality of Halton (Oakville, Burlington, Halton Hills, Milton) Regional Municipality of Kitchener-Waterloo Oxford County Dufferin County City of Peterborough City of Trenton And so on. Also, "STOP" signs are designated by Ontario Regulation 615, which outlines acceptable signage, as acceptable, even though they are in only one language. "STOP" signs cannot be challenged on the basis of not having "ARRET" also written on them, even in a designated bilingual area.
One of the most frequent tickets we get asked about on this forum is "Disobey Sign" of some sort. In many parts of Ontario, if the sign is not bilingual, there is a possibility that it may be challenged as invalid. This is because of O.Reg 615 (which sets the standard for road signs) requiring bilingual signs in a designated bilingual area, which was initially backed up by the R. v Myers case. A bilingual sign is either pictogram-only, or if it lists specific times when the sign is in effect, it says, for example "MON - FRI" and also "LUN - VEN." While it may seem rather strange that Toronto (which has 1.4% of the population as French-speaking but substantially larger populations that speak Mandarin, Cantonese, Hindi, Urdu, Vietnamese, Arabic, Tagalog, Italian, Greek, Portuguese, Spanish, etc) requires French signs, it is an option. It is not, however, bulletproof. Myers was appealed and the defendant pled guilty, so no precedent was set. If you wish to use this defence, you must state that O.Reg 615 requires bilingual road signs, and even though the municipality itself may not have committed to providing French services, the province of Ontario clearly has. As such, the ticket affects your provincial driving record and demerit points, so it is logical that the sign should be bilingual. Will they accept it? Maybe, maybe not. If, however, the sign is on a PROVINCIAL highway (e.g. 401, hwy 3, etc), then the sign must be bilingual.
If you're wondering whether your city is a designated bilingual area, here is a list of the current designated bilingual areas, as of May 20, 2009:
City of Toronto
City of Mississauga
City of Brampton
City of Ottawa
City of Hamiton (does NOT include the areas of Waterdown, Ancaster, Flamborough or Dundas)
City of London
City of Windsor
City of Kingston
City of Greater Sudbury and the District of Sudbury
Regional Municipality of Niagara
District of Algoma
District of Cochrane
District of Nipissing
District of Timiskaming
Township of Ignace
Municipality of Callander
County of Stormont
County of Glengarry
County of Russell
County of Prescott
County of Simcoe (Town of Penetanguishene, and the townships of Tiny and Essa only)
County of Renfrew (Town of Pembroke, townships of Stafford and Westmeath only)
District of Thunder Bay (Geraldton, Beardmore, Longlac, Marathon, Manitouwadge, Nakina and Terrace Bay)
Essex County (Belle River, Tecumseh, Tilbury, Colchester North, Maidstone South, Sandwich West, Sandwich South, and Rochester only - but not Leamington, Amherstburg or Kingsville)
If your ticket for disobey sign was in one of those regions, bilingual defence could be applied if the sign was not bilingual. However, the following are some examples of places that are NOT designated bilingual areas:
Regional Municipality of York (Markham, Richmond Hill, Vaughan, Stouffville, Newmarket, Aurora, etc)
Regional Municipality of Durham (Oshawa, Whitby, Ajax, Pickering)
Regional Municipality of Halton (Oakville, Burlington, Halton Hills, Milton)
Regional Municipality of Kitchener-Waterloo
Oxford County
Dufferin County
City of Peterborough
City of Trenton
And so on.
Also, "STOP" signs are designated by Ontario Regulation 615, which outlines acceptable signage, as acceptable, even though they are in only one language. "STOP" signs cannot be challenged on the basis of not having "ARRET" also written on them, even in a designated bilingual area.
Last edited by Radar Identified on Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:51 am, edited 4 times in total.
Hi, I recently lost the case (dec., 18, 09) by using this case of R. v. Myers to defend my case of turning right onto Richmond from southbound of Bay during a period of restriction time. This sign was Mon-Fri, and English Only. However, the prosecutor argued that City of Toronto never approval or adopted this bilingual option. He further mentioned that the City has appealed and won the case from the superior court. The justice of peace was in favor of him. Can you please update me on this? I am going to appeal. Should I stick to the bilingual or not? Any strong evidence to will be much appreciated. Otherwise, I will most likely seek for a less fine or points by an explanation at the appeal.
Hi, I recently lost the case (dec., 18, 09) by using this case of R. v. Myers to defend my case of turning right onto Richmond from southbound of Bay during a period of restriction time. This sign was Mon-Fri, and English Only. However, the prosecutor argued that City of Toronto never approval or adopted this bilingual option. He further mentioned that the City has appealed and won the case from the superior court. The justice of peace was in favor of him. Can you please update me on this? I am going to appeal. Should I stick to the bilingual or not? Any strong evidence to will be much appreciated. Otherwise, I will most likely seek for a less fine or points by an explanation at the appeal.
Some of the discussions that happened since this was posted indicated that bilingual defence would not work. The story is, the City of Toronto appealed R. v. Myers, and then Myers pled guilty instead of going through another trial... go figure that one. We also found that only a Superior Court Justice may make a declaratory order, and the JP and appeal court Justice who ruled on R. v. Myers were clearly not Superior Court Justices... but the City of Toronto may have gone beyond the initial appeal to a Superior Court of Justice and obtained an order preventing use of bilingual defence ever again... but I don't know if they did or not. If they didn't, then the option to use it may be available but it depends on the JP. Long story short: I'd only suggest the bilingual defence as "try it and see if it works," but not to rely on it. Some of the previous post that I wrote was edited as a caveat.
Some of the discussions that happened since this was posted indicated that bilingual defence would not work. The story is, the City of Toronto appealed R. v. Myers, and then Myers pled guilty instead of going through another trial... go figure that one. We also found that only a Superior Court Justice may make a declaratory order, and the JP and appeal court Justice who ruled on R. v. Myers were clearly not Superior Court Justices... but the City of Toronto may have gone beyond the initial appeal to a Superior Court of Justice and obtained an order preventing use of bilingual defence ever again... but I don't know if they did or not. If they didn't, then the option to use it may be available but it depends on the JP.
Long story short: I'd only suggest the bilingual defence as "try it and see if it works," but not to rely on it.
Some of the previous post that I wrote was edited as a caveat.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
The most current information is maintained by the Office of Francophone Affairs: http://www.ofa.gov.on.ca/en/flsa-mapdesig.html Looks like they haven't updated the municipalities though. :shock:
The most current information is maintained by the Office of Francophone Affairs:
Looks like they haven't updated the municipalities though.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
Which one? I'll edit the first post on the thread to remove it.
hwybear wrote:
I see one municipality listed that has not existed for 11 years
Which one? I'll edit the first post on the thread to remove it.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
Which one? I'll edit the first post on the thread to remove it. Chatham-Kent is NOT on the list on the FSL link and should be removed. Kent County is listed on FSL link, but has not existed for 11yrs.
Radar Identified wrote:
hwybear wrote:
I see one municipality listed that has not existed for 11 years
Which one? I'll edit the first post on the thread to remove it.
Chatham-Kent is NOT on the list on the FSL link and should be removed.
Kent County is listed on FSL link, but has not existed for 11yrs.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
Please also note that the french sign requirement for the City of Hamilton exists only for the City of Hamilton as it existed prior to January 1, 2001. The City of Hamilton amalgamated with Waterdown, Flamborough, Ancaster and Dundas on January 1, 2001, so the french sign requirement does not apply to these areas since, prior to January 1, 2001, they did not form as a part of the City of Hamilton. I discovered this when someone here suggested this defense to me and I looked into the Hamilton city limits as I was charged on a Hwy, but not within the City of Hamilton as it existed prior to January 1, 2001.
Please also note that the french sign requirement for the City of Hamilton exists only for the City of Hamilton as it existed prior to January 1, 2001. The City of Hamilton amalgamated with Waterdown, Flamborough, Ancaster and Dundas on January 1, 2001, so the french sign requirement does not apply to these areas since, prior to January 1, 2001, they did not form as a part of the City of Hamilton.
I discovered this when someone here suggested this defense to me and I looked into the Hamilton city limits as I was charged on a Hwy, but not within the City of Hamilton as it existed prior to January 1, 2001.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
HTA OREG 615 52. A municipality situated in an area designated by the French Language Services Act is not required to comply with the sign requirements for such areas unless it (Municipality) has passed a by-law under section 14 of that Act.
HTA OREG 615
52. A municipality situated in an area designated by the French Language Services Act is not required to comply with the sign requirements for such areas unless it (Municipality) has passed a by-law under section 14 of that Act.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Personally I'm at the point of only suggesting bilingual defence as an option, but not to rely on it. It may work in some isolated cases, but in most cases it does not. The Myers case went to appeal and she pled guilty instead of going through a trial; as far as I know, that's how it ended.
Personally I'm at the point of only suggesting bilingual defence as an option, but not to rely on it. It may work in some isolated cases, but in most cases it does not. The Myers case went to appeal and she pled guilty instead of going through a trial; as far as I know, that's how it ended.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
Oh noes, I wish I had known this earlier. I had court yesterday and indicated to the justice I was going to use bilingual defence. The prosecution said this wasn't fair as she had not been provided with the sections of the hiway traffic act I would be quoting. It was close to 4:30 so the justice didn't start my trial saying it was a very complicated case (she also added she didn't think I would win) ... so my trial got pushed back to September 10th 2010. My ticket is dated May 9th 2009. I'm wondering if I have grounds to request a Stay under 11b of the Charter ? The new court date will place me at 16 months when I go to trial again. Seems unreasonable ...
Oh noes,
I wish I had known this earlier. I had court yesterday and indicated to the justice I was going to use bilingual defence. The prosecution said this wasn't fair as she had not been provided with the sections of the hiway traffic act I would be quoting.
It was close to 4:30 so the justice didn't start my trial saying it was a very complicated case (she also added she didn't think I would win) ... so my trial got pushed back to September 10th 2010. My ticket is dated May 9th 2009.
I'm wondering if I have grounds to request a Stay under 11b of the Charter ? The new court date will place me at 16 months when I go to trial again. Seems unreasonable ...
You can always request an 11b it's just whether or not the JP accepts your argument. 16 months puts you in a pretty good position unless you have caused a delay in the trial process already (which it doesn't sound like you have). Good luck.
Bamelin wrote:
Oh noes,
I'm wondering if I have grounds to request a Stay under 11b of the Charter ? The new court date will place me at 16 months when I go to trial again. Seems unreasonable ...
You can always request an 11b it's just whether or not the JP accepts your argument. 16 months puts you in a pretty good position unless you have caused a delay in the trial process already (which it doesn't sound like you have). Good luck.
Does anyone think that this process is abusive? You clearly speak English as you've noted by your near flawless command of the language...so you would have understood the sign and for some other reason didn't obey it. Isn't that the real issue here? What would you say if a fluently English person disobeyed a stop sign and ran over a child, your child? I understand, it's ok, the sign wasn't in French for this Anglophone? I understand and respect rights, but not as a charade to play games. Those rights were established so that Francophones could have a trial in a language they understand, so they had a right to fair comprehension and defence...not to be abused as a stalling tactic to let people avoid answering for their behaviour, right or wrong, this abuse of the law is disgusting and if the authorities played those kinds of games there would be an uproar about fair play... Sad that people play these games rather than take responsibility for their actions...
Does anyone think that this process is abusive?
You clearly speak English as you've noted by your near flawless command of the language...so you would have understood the sign and for some other reason didn't obey it.
Isn't that the real issue here?
What would you say if a fluently English person disobeyed a stop sign and ran over a child, your child?
I understand, it's ok, the sign wasn't in French for this Anglophone?
I understand and respect rights, but not as a charade to play games. Those rights were established so that Francophones could have a trial in a language they understand, so they had a right to fair comprehension and defence...not to be abused as a stalling tactic to let people avoid answering for their behaviour, right or wrong, this abuse of the law is disgusting and if the authorities played those kinds of games there would be an uproar about fair play...
Sad that people play these games rather than take responsibility for their actions...
It's not about me trying to "beat the system" it's about me defending myself in court to the best of my ability which is a very important right, one I take seriously. The bottom line is that if bilingual defence argument is accepted in court then no law has been broken. The reason courts follow the "letter of the law" is to ensure everyone is treated fairly under the law. Once you start trying to argue "oh the law only needs to be "close enough" that is a slippery slope my friend to being tried unfairly. Personally I believe it is the DUTY of citizens to use the law to defend themselves and the law itself is impartial to "right or wrong" ... it is simply the law. People died to give us the freedom to exercise these rights. I do understand what you are saying Fyre but I don't agree with you at all. Among other things, the system exists to give everyone a chance to challenge the "legality" of what they are being accused of.
FyreStorm wrote:
Does anyone think that this process is abusive?
You clearly speak English as you've noted by your near flawless command of the language...so you would have understood the sign and for some other reason didn't obey it.
Isn't that the real issue here?
What would you say if a fluently English person disobeyed a stop sign and ran over a child, your child?
I understand, it's ok, the sign wasn't in French for this Anglophone?
I understand and respect rights, but not as a charade to play games. Those rights were established so that Francophones could have a trial in a language they understand, so they had a right to fair comprehension and defence...not to be abused as a stalling tactic to let people avoid answering for their behaviour, right or wrong, this abuse of the law is disgusting and if the authorities played those kinds of games there would be an uproar about fair play...
Sad that people play these games rather than take responsibility for their actions...
It's not about me trying to "beat the system" it's about me defending myself in court to the best of my ability which is a very important right, one I take seriously. The bottom line is that if bilingual defence argument is accepted in court then no law has been broken.
The reason courts follow the "letter of the law" is to ensure everyone is treated fairly under the law. Once you start trying to argue "oh the law only needs to be "close enough" that is a slippery slope my friend to being tried unfairly. Personally I believe it is the DUTY of citizens to use the law to defend themselves and the law itself is impartial to "right or wrong" ... it is simply the law.
People died to give us the freedom to exercise these rights.
I do understand what you are saying Fyre but I don't agree with you at all. Among other things, the system exists to give everyone a chance to challenge the "legality" of what they are being accused of.
Respectfully disagree. 1) That is a very small portion of why the FLSA was enacted. Read the Constitution and some history books for a more complete and thorough perspective. 2) Arguing that upholding the law is abusing the law, is, well, bizarre, and a little frightening coming from a police officer; 3) some police officers and some prosecutors have been known to play the odd game, believe it or not 3) The law works both ways. You do not always choose to disobey the law, and yet, the law says that if you commit an absolute liability offence, no mens rea is required. Is that fair play? Doesn't matter. That's the law.
I understand and respect rights, but not as a charade to play games. Those rights were established so that Francophones could have a trial in a language they understand, so they had a right to fair comprehension and defence...not to be abused as a stalling tactic to let people avoid answering for their behaviour, right or wrong, this abuse of the law is disgusting and if the authorities played those kinds of games there would be an uproar about fair play...
Respectfully disagree. 1) That is a very small portion of why the FLSA was enacted. Read the Constitution and some history books for a more complete and thorough perspective. 2) Arguing that upholding the law is abusing the law, is, well, bizarre, and a little frightening coming from a police officer; 3) some police officers and some prosecutors have been known to play the odd game, believe it or not 3) The law works both ways. You do not always choose to disobey the law, and yet, the law says that if you commit an absolute liability offence, no mens rea is required. Is that fair play? Doesn't matter. That's the law.
The fine is not the issue but I am worried about insurance rates. First speeding ticket in my life Any suggestions on how to handle this? I can't afford to spend a day at the court
So was at court today in Orillia for a friend, and I had submitted a couple notice of motion a couple weeks ago that I wanted to deal with before arraignment. I met with prosecutor before hand, and it went something like this:
Prosecutor: "Do you have the case law?"
Me: "What do you mean?"
Prosecutor: "Do you have the case law for your motion?"
Me: "All the case law is quoted in the motion that I…
1)failure to change address on license (i got married a couple of months earlier and moved)
2) license plate not fully visible
I got pulled over because I had 2 letters peeling off my license plate. I know ignorance isn't a defense, but I really had no idea that this was an issue. Plus, you see many cars on the road with peeling plates. I got both tickets and…
I was driving around 140km/h on a 100km/h posted on the highway. I was in the fast lane. The officer was very nice and reduced it to no points and just 15km/h over.
I only have my G2.
1. Will this affect me taking the G test next month?
2. I am very grateful for the officer lowering the ticket... should I just pay the 52.5$ and leave it as is.. I am a secondary driver under my dads name and we have…
Hi, thanks in advance for the help. Been driving for 10 years, clean record until today when I got slapped with two tickets. First: going 135 at 100 on the 401, second: not having a valid sticker (I recently moved and completely forgot about it)
My friend tells me I should fight the speed ticket, if anything to reduce the fine and points. Would be alot of help if anyone could walk me through…
My wife, who has never had a traffic ticket in her life, just got 11 points.
Two tickets: "following too closely" and "failure to stop"
She was on a residential street and was behind a car at a crosswalk waiting for a pedestrian. Pedestrian crossed, they continued. Cop was drivig towards them down a side street , and as they passed he went after my wife.
I was driving in mid lane and was following a line of cars around speed limit.
The vehicle in front of me was large and I decided to change to the left lane to get better line sight.
As soon as I entered the left lane, I saw the car in front of me approximately 200m away stopped dead (for some odd reason, there was more traffic on the left lane).
Over the last few months I have received several parking tickets from the City of Kitchener. I haven't paid any of them and have attempted to dicuss the situation with the parking authority of the City, however, they're very unreceptive and defensive.
I work at a downtown construction site....ironically a Court House. The site takes up a whole city block, of which ONE side has 2 hour parking…
I was driving on a teusday night in the rain and fog at whites and highview by St. Mary CSS in Pickering, ON. At the time I was waiting at a red light to make a left north onto whites. There was also a car on the opposite side of the intersection making a left. The cars beams were pointed almost directly at my face and as a result, with the combination of the rain and fog, I…
I am new to this website and this is my first post so please forgive me if I've put this question in the wrong place. Please bear with me until I learn the ropes a bit.
So here are my questions:
Antique cars and hot rods (1930's- early '60's) and seat belt use in Ontario. If these vehicles never came from the respective factories with any seat belts, do they have to be retrofitted ?
OK so Jshreck has been taking some heat for the concept of providing the DL as being not required and therefore inadmissable in court. Personally, I think that argument would fall on deaf ears in the lower court and any chance at victory would have to be in the highest court. That would be quite something. When pigs fly I think, but along that line of thought, allow me to continue.......
I have a court date soon and am wondering whether the officers just read off their disclosure notes when interrogated.
Basically, according to the disclosure notes and the said distances and speeds quoted, by doing some simple math it just doesn't add up. My concern is whether the officer can change his story when on the stand after maybe realizing this?
Last week I was driving home from college in the sauga area. I drive a 1995 Chevy Monte Carlo v6 which I've owned since 2000, I really haven't done anything to the car except tinted windows (not completely darken) and some rims, and Nothing Engine wise. Anyway I look in my rear view mirror and out of no where i see cherry flashing. When pulled over the officer asked do you…
I was charged 2 days ago with RED LIGHT - FAIL TO STOP and set fined $150 and I guess 3 points. I was driving turning left on the intersection with a traffic light, and when I jst about to turn left the light turned to orange and I didn't have enough time to stop. Once I turned I saw the light turned to red and 2seconds later I saw a police beacon flashing through my rear-view mirror. It…
I figured pleading not guilty is the same as saying it was signed which is stupid. A friend of mine told me I could plead guilty with explanation and try to get the fine reduced when I come in.
So this Friday I was stopped by a local officer for going 110 in a 80zone. He also claims I was going 105 in a 50zone,which we literally passed when he stopped me as I was braking. It has been 3 days already and I can't seem to locate my ticket on their Internet site "pay ticket". Is there a way to determine if he has filed for certificate of offence to the courts? It has been 3 days I presume…
My trial date is in a couple days for a speeding ticket (york region) and i am nervous it is my first ticket ever as well as first trial
I did notice my ticket was filed beyond 7 days, 10 days after the day i got the ticket to be exact, which is stamped on the ticket. is this enough to have it dismissed?
If you look close enough, beside the drivers' side "A" pillar you will see a white circle = front antenna of Genesis radar......plus look above the dash pad...there is the Spectre RDD.