Red Light Ticket - Ottawa

soxwing
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Red Light Ticket - Ottawa

Unread post by soxwing on

I've been told there is an issue specific to the City of Ottawa that makes Red Light Offence Notices in Form 5 invalid. Apparently they need to be in Form 3 in the City of Ottawa as per subsection 3(4) of the Ontario Regulation 108/11 so that section 13 of the Provincial Ofences Act can be satisfied.
I've looked at the Reg's and the Act and can not clearly determine for myself if this is in fact correct.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me?


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hwybear
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Unread post by hwybear on

if you want to post the links to what you are looking at, so we can all review and discuss. thanks
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


soxwing
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Unread post by soxwing on

I accessed the noted documents via a Google search. (sorry, not sure how to post a link) I'm having a hard time interpreting the legislation to determine if Form 3 is in fact the proper format for an Offence Notice inthe City of Ottawa. If it helps , the following is the procedure I was given:

1) On the notice, I think option "1 - Trial Option" is what I would go for.

2) When you arrive at court, speak to the crown, and consider the deal he offers, it may be worth it not to have to spend a day in “jail” (court) waiting for your turn. If you don’t want to take the deal, and he asks what you want to do tell him you would like to speak to the justice, then ask if your case could be dealt with sooner.

3) When it’s finally your turn, the crown will present the charge to the court, and the justice will ask you how you plead. DO NOT make a plea or you may screw yourself. Your response should be:

“Your worship I make a motion to Quash this charge on the grounds that the document sent to me entitled “Offence Notice” was not in fact an “Offence Notice” as per subsection 3(4) of Ontario Regulation 108/11 at the time it was issued. Therefore the requirements of section 13 of the Provincial Offences Act have not been met and this proceeding cannot commence.”

4) Now the crown will probably make some argument that as per subsection 90(1), the justice can amend the issued notice to deal with any irregularities.

Your response to that needs to be:”The proceeding must be commenced before subsection 90(1) can take effect. Since the requirements of subsection 3(4) of Ontario Regulation 108/11 have not been met as provided by section 13 of the Provincial Offences Act, the proceedings cannot commence. Thus section 90(1) is not in effect”.


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hwybear
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Unread post by hwybear on

Ok, read OREG 108/11 sec 3(4) is for red light camera offences and the notice shall be on a Form 6.

Is this a red light camera offence? If so, I can move this post to the red light camera area.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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Unread post by soxwing on

it's the part that indicates "in those parts of Ontario designated for the purposes of section 5.1 of the Act" that confuses me.
And yes, it appears I put this query in the wrong section. If you could move it to the red light camera offence section I would appreciate it.


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hwybear
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Unread post by hwybear on

ok, think I got it now.....

OREG 108/11 sec 3(4)
an offence notice issued in proceedings based on evidence obtained through the use of a red light camera system shall be in Form 6 in those parts of Ontario designated for the purposes of section 5.1 of the Act

POA OREG 950
4(5) The parts of Ontario designated in the Table to this section are designated for the purposes of section 5.1 of the Act.
TABLE
City of Hamilton
City of Kawartha Lakes
City of Ottawa
City of Toronto
County of Dufferin
County of Essex
County of Haliburton
County of Northumberland
County of Peterborough
District Municipality of Muskoka
Haldimand County
Regional Municipality of Durham
Regional Municipality of Halton
Regional Municipality of Peel
Regional Municipality of Waterloo
Regional Municipality of York
5. (1) The words or expressions set out in Column 1 of a Schedule may be used in a certificate of offence, offence notice or summons to designate the offence described in the provision set out opposite in Column 2 of the Schedule under the Act or regulation set out in the heading to the Schedule.

So, it appears that all 5.1 does is allows those "municipal names" be used. I am guessing that it just streamlines the area into a legal entity, instead of smaller little entities that merged to form the new entity.

I am sure our interpreter Simon (as he is good at making heads n tails of legal writing) will be able to help sort this mumble jumble out
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


soxwing
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Unread post by soxwing on

So if I'm interpreting this correctly any Red Light Camera ticket issued in the City of Ottawa that is on Form 5 and not Form 6 is invalid?


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Unread post by Simon Borys on

Ok, you asked for it, so here it is. Note where it says certificate of offence and offence notice and don't get them confused.

The Law

Reg 950 s. 1(2) says certificate of offence for red light proceedings shall be in Form 2

This is revoked on the day s. 7(4) of Schedule 1 of the Good Government Act comes into force, which is March 1, 2012

Reg 950 s. 2(3) says offence notice for red light proceedings shall be in Form 5

Reg 950 s. 2(4) says offence notice for red light proceedings shall be in Form 5.1 in those parts of Ontario designated for the purpose of section 5.1 of the Act. SEE LIST BELOW

This is also revoked on the day s. 7(4) of Schedule 1 of the Good Government Act comes into force, which is March 1, 2012

But Reg 108/11 s. 1(4) says that despite the revocation of forms 1-6 of Reg 950, those forms may continue to be used, in addition to the new forms required by Reg 108/11, for 6 months after the day this section comes into force, which will be September 1 2012

After that, the following is solely applicable:

Reg 108/11 s. 2(2) says that certificate of offence for red light proceedings shall be in form 2

Reg 108/11 s. 3(3) says that offence notice for red light proceedings shall be in form 5

Reg 108/11 s. 3(4) says offence notice for red light proceedings shall be in Form 6 in those parts of Ontario designated for the purpose of section 5.1 of the Act. SEE LIST BELOW

What this Means:

Offences Notices for Red Light Proceedings
Now until Mar 1/12 - Form 2
Mar 1/12 - Sept 1/12 - Form 2
After Sept 1/12 - Form 2

Certificate of Offence for Red Light Proceedings
Now until Mar 1/12 (everwhere except places listed in s. 5.1) - Form 5
Now until Mar 1/12 (places listed in s. 5.1) - Form 5.1
Mar 1/12 - Sept 1/12 (everwhere except places listed in s. 5.1) - Form 5
Mar 1/12 - Sept 1/12 (places listed in s. 5.1) - Form 5.1 or Form 6
After Sept 1/12 (everwhere except places listed in s. 5.1) - Form 5
After Sept 1/12 (places listed in s. 5.1) - Form 6

So really the only change is that in places listed in s. 5.1 they can start using Form 6 for the Certificate of Offence after Mar 1/12 while they phase out Form 5.1. After Sept 1/12 they will only be able to use Form 6.

Reg 950 s. 4.5 says that the places designated for s. 5.1 are:

City of Hamilton
City of Kawartha Lakes
City of Ottawa
City of Toronto
County of Dufferin
County of Essex
County of Haliburton
County of Northumberland
County of Peterborough
District Municipality of Muskoka
Haldimand County
Regional Municipality of Durham
Regional Municipality of Halton
Regional Municipality of Peel
Regional Municipality of Waterloo
Regional Municipality of York

I want to make a particular caution that I'm not suggesting that anybody take this information to court to try to argue anything. This is just a discussion we are all having here to try to understand the law better and I am sharing my understanding of the meaning of the new regulations. I AM NOT PROVIDING LEGAL ADVICE BY WRITING THIS.
http://www.boryslaw.ca
NOTHING I SAY ON HERE IS LEGAL ADVICE.


soxwing
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Unread post by soxwing on

wow, thank you for taking the time to supply such a detailed response. The bottom line seems to be that an Red Light Camera System Offence Notice in Form 5 shouldn't fly in the City of Ottawa.
Can you tell me if the procedure listed in my second entry looks right?


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Simon Borys
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Unread post by Simon Borys on

Sorry, I have to refrain from giving specific legal advice about what you should or should do/say in court. My contributions to this board must remain limited to general information, knowledge sharing, and discussion.
http://www.boryslaw.ca
NOTHING I SAY ON HERE IS LEGAL ADVICE.


paul1913
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Unread post by paul1913 on

I have personally sat through court in Ottawa when someone tried to argue this exact point. Mind you that the guy just read something he printed off the Internet. I can't remember which section the prosecutor pulled out or quoted but he quickly shut this down. The JP that was sitting was also aware of this tactic and wouldn't buy it .

Just a thought, cheers


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Unread post by soxwing on

thanks guys, looks like the only thing left to do is formulate the proper way to present your argument in court. Not sure why this should be neccessary if the courts know the Offences Notices are flawed on their face.


mike613ottawa
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Unread post by mike613ottawa on

Sorry to hijack an old thread, but I am wondering if anybody has any input on how things presently stand in Ottawa?

Currently, Reg 108/11 s. 3(4) says "an offence notice issued in proceedings based on evidence obtained through the use of a red light camera system shall be in Form 6 in those parts of Ontario where the offence notice requires the notice of intention to appear to be filed in person." (There is no longer any mention of section 5.1.)

http://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/110108

I recently received a Form 5, but from what I read in the current revision of the POA, this appears to be the incorrect form, assuming that a notice of intention to appear needs to be filed in person in Ottawa.

Any advice would be much appreciated - thanks!!






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