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Advice Wife's ticket - 11b 120kmh (claim 134) Woodstock
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:45 pm 
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Ok so looking for some advice in regards to my wife's speeding ticket 120k in 100 (I was in vehicle so witnessed most - but was resting at initial clock.)

whats the likelihood of positive outcome of an 11b (or an officer no show, which I suspect doesn't really happen as much as web/Ads would have you believe) of 8months.

Wife REALLY doesn't want to go, and of course I'm the one doing all of the research/better under pressure.

Here's the details:

Ticket May 15th 8pm on 401 officer was sitting on drumbo road on ramp.

Claims 134 initial clock, but then he pulled onto highway, and of course may have taken second readings, while following etc. (I'm still waiting on disclosure, see below.)

at the pullover he comes to passenger side, so I'm the one handing over insurance, ownership etc.

Asks usual type of questions, why so fast, did it get away from you, so on and so forth, my wife, flustered basically babbles admission was going faster than speed limit, this that the other thing, so on and so forth.
He questions our license sticker not being up to date renewal, which I had to correct him on a couple times, because we had renewed online and were waiting on sticker in mail (I had the proper printout, with confirmation which is legal, which I had handed and pointed out to him before he even started his initial questioning.)

Writes ticket for 120 in 100, non-fatal flaw wrong birth year for wife (2 years off wrote an 8 vs. a 6.) He hands it over and states dropping 10 is the max allowed by an officer for a road side stop, if you need it lower go to court. $95 ticket

mailing options are fully provided for oxford county, with the usual need to select option within 15d. As we on our way out of the country for extended long weekend for a family wedding didn't get back until 1w later, and as such after reviewing options sent it back registered mail the ticket filled out as appear in court, intend to challenge officer, on May 30th (received by them the 31st.) so technically mailed within the 15d, 16th day was received.

Nothing comes until finally got trial notice sent back non-registered mail dated Dec 9th (received in mailbox Dec 13th) trial set for January 29th.

Spend next couple days reviewing next steps, getting prosecutor's name and fax, and write a disclosure letter and have wife fax over the disclosure request on December 18th, providing mailing address for which it is to be sent, no phone, so we don't have to go and pick it up (1hr from where we live.) Have not yet received, will be prepping a second request after deal with 11b.

Getting close to the 15d minimum to send in 11b challenge. So here's the ultimate question:

while I recognize there is no time guarantees, and many sites say 14m, 12m 10m, there are numerous references to 8months+ as being grounds for 11b. Likelihood of success here?

It seems somewhat unreasonable that it took 6.5 months just to give notice of trial for a simple traffic ticket matter, and trial is an 8m14d from notice of offence (but technically 8m almost exactly from intent to appear.) Now of course waiting to get disclosure to see at minimum what notes officer made, including the confusion he had about online renewal, did that make us memorable, or actually forgettable. I'm sure due to Christmas closures, getting that from the officer and prosecutor, won't exactly be expeditious.

Couple other points, prosecutor in Woodstock is contracted out to a 25y practicing lawyer, so I'm suspect he could out-argue my wife, who is already concerned, and just wants to pay it.

Any thoughts, on the 11b outcome, or experiences with officer not showing, especially Oxford country POA, etc.?

One concern is that the JP actually "bumps" it back up on the evidence to 130+ which is a significant more fine, and extra demerit point. Hence of of the key reasons I want to see what the officer wrote/is likely to recall.

On the fence for how far to take it, Not really worried about demerit points, her record is fine, over 3y ago would have had a ticket on failure to submit insurance (on a BS pull over for "dirty license plate") proof, which was merely the pink slip wasn't the current one - hate that money grab type of charge, the policy is the same.....it's more the matter of having it stayed "easily" or just eating the $95 beforehand, and making my wife "happy" ;) then hoping insurance doesn't go up.

So are the 11b arguments weak for a likely "successful" outcome?

Last question for now is as I understand she can opt to pay the fine at any time up to the trial (which yes I understand by the very nature of paying admits guilt, something obviously ideally would love to avoid) and essentially if decided to do that, no one has to go to court.


thanks in advance!


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Re: Advice Wife's ticket - 11b 120kmh (claim 134) Woodstock
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:10 pm 
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Hey guys, anyone have any thoughts, trial is on the 29th, so she needs to do the 11b filing in next day (and likely the fax method unfortunately,) and really hoping for some advice. Still waiting on disclosure....but will have to file the 11b before we get that I expect.

Arguments that 6.5 month period from intention to appear until notice of trial and 8.5m since offence (8m since intention) sound valid for 11b?

thanks again.


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Re: Advice Wife's ticket - 11b 120kmh (claim 134) Woodstock
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:56 pm 
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You may have an even stronger chance at an 11b stay if you were to get an adjournment on the 29th due to lack of disclosure. Unfortunately that would mean another ~1hr weekday trip to the courthouse.

You should review the Andrade decision prior to submitting your 11b application: R. ex rel City of Toronto v. Andrade, 2011 ONCJ 470 (CanLII) http://canlii.ca/t/fn8jv

You have not considered the intake period; Justice Libman ruled that if you request your intention to go to trial near the last day, the intake period will be 45 days.

So in your case the delay is 6 months and 15 days, and not 8 months. Even if you had promptly responded to the ticket, the delay would still be <8 months. There was a member on the forum who got a stay at 7 months you can read about it here: topic2159-30.html#p21984


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Re: Advice Wife's ticket - 11b 120kmh (claim 134) Woodstock
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:18 pm 
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Thanks for the reply ifly55! I will re-review that one for sure (I had read it prior, but read so much, I may have misinterpreted/missed key points) and I just read the other 11b topic you linked to as well. So the intake period of 45d comes off, which obviously shortens the speedy trial argument, and to confirm then the fact that it took 5 months for notice of trial to come (when the 45d is removed) is not a strong enough argument on its own "for a simple 20 over" stay, etc.?

So in this case she would NOT file the 11b, but rather proceed, and argue did not get disclosure, (and if we get it in between now and the trial, argument is that it was not enough time to prepare,) so "through no fault of own" should have an adjournment. Then once we recieve disclosure, can decide next steps, and presumably do the 11b before the next trial. Correct?

I'm assuming you can't do a "double" 11b? Ie do one now, with the arguments above and then if denied, and then do the inadequate disclosure argument, and request adjournment, and if it's another several months submit a new 11b for overall length?

thanks again, appreciate the insights!


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Re: Advice Wife's ticket - 11b 120kmh (claim 134) Woodstock
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:00 pm 
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The long length of time it took to send the notice of trial will work in your favour. To request for disclosure, you need to indicate the trial date. You diligently waited for your 'Notice of Trial', which indicates that date in order to request for disclosure.

Ontario Prosecutors require 6-8 weeks to process disclosure requests, and your Dec 18th fax doesn't meet that requirement. Having said that, you diligently requested for disclosure as soon as you received your 'Notice of Trial'. You need to emphasize this, because the crown may argue they weren't given enough time.

You will have to argue the inadequate disclosure before the 11 argument. Keep in mind if the 11b fails, you maybe going straight to trial.

It's also important that when they give you a new date for the adjournment that you make yourself available on the earliest date they request. They may trick you into choosing two dates (ie: March 1 and March 7); naturally you'll want to pick the 7th, even though the difference is 7 days... the crown will later argue that you're uninterested in a speedy trial.

It maybe in your best interest to not talk about your 11b strategy with the crown or the courts; they may then pick a new adjournment date that falls within the Morin guidelines (ie: following week).


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Re: Advice Wife's ticket - 11b 120kmh (claim 134) Woodstock
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 6:09 pm 
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thanks again ifly55! that helps clear it up for me. Definitely won't show the cards on the 11b yet. :)


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Re: Advice Wife's ticket - 11b 120kmh (claim 134) Woodstock
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 8:48 am 
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So my wife went to court (I observed) and while concerned she maybe made some mistakes, she did ok. met with prosecutor, he offered lesser (in retrospect, given where we are now, maybe should have taken that,) we hadn't had any disclosure, he didn't have the request, so they scrambled and produced it there. asked if she wanted more time, said no, let's go to trial (our understanding was that had to request adjournment in front of justice specifically so that could show they didn't provide adequate disclosure, in order to not affect an 11b ie delay not her fault.)

officer did show.
trail started, but prior to entering a plea, she requested the adjournment due to failure to disclose. some back and forth on request. final remark claim of prosecutor was reason is that day of trial wasn't listed on the disclosure request.
Justice granted the adjournment and reschedule trial for May 21

My wife has made it clear after the stress she does not want to go back so need to understand options:

1. Can she just go ahead and pay the original fine (ie. this option isn't void because we've been and have granted an adjournment to future date) so that they can't increase it to the 130 as clocked/noted in disclosure?

2. Does she HAVE to go, or can she appoint a representative like myself (no paralegal/legal training obviously)

3. If can appoint, that change anything for filling 11b, or arguments of proof, etc. for example she faxed the disclosure req's and have the receipts, but then I'm there to state that, adn anything from now until trial I do anything faxes, filling in 11b, etc.

Thanks!


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Re: Advice Wife's ticket - 11b 120kmh (claim 134) Woodstock
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:49 pm 
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Sneaks wrote:
1. Can she just go ahead and pay the original fine (ie. this option isn't void because we've been and have granted an adjournment to future date) so that they can't increase it to the 130 as clocked/noted in disclosure?


You can do all this at the next trial date. You can still plead guilty to the original ticket, but chances are they'll still make an offer similar to the one you received last time. They'll amend the ticket to the original speed once it's established that a trial will take place. They wont force you into a trial. If anything, they want to avoid it. Trials are too long and they want to get to lunch.

Sneaks wrote:
2. Does she HAVE to go, or can she appoint a representative like myself (no paralegal/legal training obviously)


You can represent her as long as she agrees.

Sneaks wrote:
3. If can appoint, that change anything for filling 11b, or arguments of proof, etc. for example she faxed the disclosure req's and have the receipts, but then I'm there to state that, adn anything from now until trial I do anything faxes, filling in 11b, etc.


Anything up to the new trial date wont change.


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