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Disobey Sign 182(2) at St. Paul's Square, Toronto
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:34 pm 
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I was driving west on Bloor St. yesterday (Saturday, Dec. 6th, 2014) around 4:45pm Saturday afternoon towards Church St. Before Church St., there's a side street named St. Paul's Square where I usually make a right to bypass all that traffic at the intersection of Bloor St. and Church St., let alone the heavy traffic at Yonge St. and Bloor St.. To my surprise, I was pulled over and given a ticket of Disobeying a Sign 182 (2).

From my experience with that turn, and after clearly seeing the posted sign and reading it clearly (or so I thought), I was almost positive that I can make that right turn as the sign stated:

No Right Turns 7 PM - 7 AM Mon - Fri (then a divider line) ANYTIME Sat - Sun. - Ok, so it's not Mon - Fri, it's Saturday and I can make that turn "ANYTIME" - WRONG! I learned that you can't make that turn ANYTIME during Sat - Sun. I feel very deceived by this sign as I had to read this fairly lengthy sign, and figure out if I can or can not make this turn while questioning in my head if the words "ANYTIME" meant "Allowed, Anytime during the weekends" all while driving closer and closer to this turn.

I've attached a pictured image of this sign at the bottom of the post so that you can see.

So, my question are as followed:

1. Is there an argument that I can make that the sign is deceiving and not worded properly? Or maybe suggest that there should be 2 signs indicating no right turn Sat-Sun and another no right turn between 7pm - 7am Mon-Fri?
2. Do I have an argument that the sign wasn't put up properly and not properly legible as there is a BOLT that goes through the wording of the sign making the word say "ANYTIM" and obstructing myself to understand what it's trying to say before making the turn.

Attachment:
sign-small.JPG
sign-small.JPG [ 100.19 KiB | Viewed 1217 times ]


About St. Paul's Square Street (From another article NOT written by me):

St. Paul's Square is a very short street. It's under 100 meters long. It doesn't have any schools of businesses on the street. It's more a commercial street then a residential street. It's not like there are any little children playing on the street. So, the risk of a pedestrian getting hit by a car on account of a careless motorist, or a speeding motorist aren't very high. Did I mention that there's a stop sign at the end of the road? In any event, the Toronto Police would literally camp out at this intersection in the hopes of catching unsupecting motorists. And ticket they did. Something like over 300,000 illegal turn tickets were handed out on this street in 2012 alone. That translates into lots of money for the City. If you're a police officer working a shift and haven't handed out a ticket, staking out at St. Paul's Square was a sure fire way to get that ticket count up and make it look like you're doing your job.


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Re: Disobey Sign 182(2) at St. Paul's Square, Toronto
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:44 am
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Dovaleh wrote:
I feel very deceived by this sign as I had to read this fairly lengthy sign, and figure out if I can or can not make this turn while questioning in my head if the words "ANYTIME" meant "Allowed, Anytime during the weekends" all while driving closer and closer to this turn...

1. Is there an argument that I can make that the sign is deceiving and not worded properly? Or maybe suggest that there should be 2 signs indicating no right turn Sat-Sun and another no right turn between 7pm - 7am Mon-Fri?


The sign has no obligation to tell you when you CAN turn. It's simply there to tell you when you can't. Why would the sign bother telling you when you CAN turn? Wouldn't it be easier to leave that part blank? Not a good argument, in my opinion.

Dovaleh wrote:
2. Do I have an argument that the sign wasn't put up properly and not properly legible as there is a BOLT that goes through the wording of the sign making the word say "ANYTIM" and obstructing myself to understand what it's trying to say before making the turn.


This contradicts your previous argument. You can't argue the sign is telling you its OK to turn, then say "well I can't read it now".

Dovaleh wrote:
About St. Paul's Square Street (From another article NOT written by me):

St. Paul's Square is a very short street. It's under 100 meters long. It doesn't have any schools of businesses on the street. It's more a commercial street then a residential street. It's not like there are any little children playing on the street. So, the risk of a pedestrian getting hit by a car on account of a careless motorist, or a speeding motorist aren't very high. Did I mention that there's a stop sign at the end of the road? In any event, the Toronto Police would literally camp out at this intersection in the hopes of catching unsupecting motorists. And ticket they did. Something like over 300,000 illegal turn tickets were handed out on this street in 2012 alone. That translates into lots of money for the City. If you're a police officer working a shift and haven't handed out a ticket, staking out at St. Paul's Square was a sure fire way to get that ticket count up and make it look like you're doing your job.


This is irrelevant. It's not going to help your case during a trial.


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Re: Disobey Sign 182(2) at St. Paul's Square, Toronto
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:05 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:54 pm
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bend wrote:
Dovaleh wrote:
I feel very deceived by this sign as I had to read this fairly lengthy sign, and figure out if I can or can not make this turn while questioning in my head if the words "ANYTIME" meant "Allowed, Anytime during the weekends" all while driving closer and closer to this turn...

1. Is there an argument that I can make that the sign is deceiving and not worded properly? Or maybe suggest that there should be 2 signs indicating no right turn Sat-Sun and another no right turn between 7pm - 7am Mon-Fri?


The sign has no obligation to tell you when you CAN turn. It's simply there to tell you when you can't. Why would the sign bother telling you when you CAN turn? Wouldn't it be easier to leave that part blank? Not a good argument, in my opinion.

I understand that, but at least have it worded differently so that there wouldn't be this confusion. While you're sitting in the drivers seat of a moving vehicle and approaching this sign, the eyes see the word ANYTIME written (after a line divider on the sign) and the brain seems to process it as permissible within the matter of seconds when this whole thing takes place.

Dovaleh wrote:
2. Do I have an argument that the sign wasn't put up properly and not properly legible as there is a BOLT that goes through the wording of the sign making the word say "ANYTIM" and obstructing myself to understand what it's trying to say before making the turn.


This contradicts your previous argument. You can't argue the sign is telling you its OK to turn, then say "well I can't read it now".

Apologize, I should have been more clear. This would be completely separate to my first question. I wouldn't (obviously) ask both questions.

Dovaleh wrote:
About St. Paul's Square Street (From another article NOT written by me):

St. Paul's Square is a very short street. It's under 100 meters long. It doesn't have any schools of businesses on the street. It's more a commercial street then a residential street. It's not like there are any little children playing on the street. So, the risk of a pedestrian getting hit by a car on account of a careless motorist, or a speeding motorist aren't very high. Did I mention that there's a stop sign at the end of the road? In any event, the Toronto Police would literally camp out at this intersection in the hopes of catching unsupecting motorists. And ticket they did. Something like over 300,000 illegal turn tickets were handed out on this street in 2012 alone. That translates into lots of money for the City. If you're a police officer working a shift and haven't handed out a ticket, staking out at St. Paul's Square was a sure fire way to get that ticket count up and make it look like you're doing your job.


This is irrelevant. It's not going to help your case during a trial.


The above blurb has nothing to do with an argument, just a little background information on the area.


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Re: Disobey Sign 182(2) at St. Paul's Square, Toronto
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:01 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:31 pm
Posts: 502
There is a thread on this same spot here somewhere.
Not sure how it turned out.?
Agreed it makes no sense.

But after looking at it closely the anytime sat/sun seems clear to me.

Cheers
Viper1

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Re: Disobey Sign 182(2) at St. Paul's Square, Toronto
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:05 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:29 am
Posts: 7
By all means, request disclosure and see if you can get the charge dismissed in court due to a technicality.

If that's not possible, see if the prosecutor is willing to let you plea guilty to the charge of "Disobey lane light 144 (10)" which carries no demerit points. At least that's what I'd do. It also wouldn't hurt to discuss your options with a paralegal AFTER you obtain disclosure.

I almost got caught on that street myself, a few years ago.


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