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Improper Right Turn - Do I have a strong case?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:52 am 
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Do I have a strong case against the officer?

Well, I got a ticket for making an improper right turn. Was in a 3 lanes street, left lane to make a left turn, center lane to go straight, and right lane to make a right turn. I was in the center lane and did make right turn, that's why I got a ticket.

I will try to go to the court to appeal. Here is my argument to dismiss the ticket upon fairness and justice.

My argument is the officer was busy to collect my info and filled in the ticket, he allowed 5 more cars to go while they did make the same offence. I was looking at the rear mirror while the officer writing down the info. I don't see any justice in that. 5 offenders got away while I got a ticket for the same offence.

Will the judge dismiss the ticket?

Please advice if i have a strong case to defend me.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:45 am 
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1) The only case you could have had was if the right lane was obstructed by something.
2) Otherwise, just because others got away with breaking the law doesn't negate the fact that you were caught doing it.
3) You can always try to get off on a technicality while it's still possible.

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Additional info
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:48 am 
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There are no signs posted (Describing each lane functionailty) above near the traffic light is or on the side road.
The only sign is on the road itself, only an arrow pointing forward.

May be I should take pictures of the missing signs.

Do I have a case here too?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:24 am 
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As far as I know, a pavement marking is the same as an erected lane designation sign.

Besides, with no signs or marking present, it would still be an improper right turn as then only the right hand lane is the proper turning lane.

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Re: Additional info
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:27 am 
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royal123 wrote:
There are no signs posted (Describing each lane functionailty) above near the traffic light is or on the side road.
The only sign is on the road itself, only an arrow pointing forward.

May be I should take pictures of the missing signs.

Do I have a case here too?


You do not have a strong case at all. However here are a couple of points to consider. Lane markings are covered here. But you were not charged with "disobey sign" but likely s.141 "improper turn".

So it depends on what the officer remembers. If he says you didn't use the designated lane, you can argue there was no signage (or inadequate signage as per regulation) designating the lane for turns. That's half his argument gone.

But that still leaves you with explaining why you turned from the middle lane instead of the default right lane as per s.141. Do you have an explanation for that?

There are some intersections, mostly coming off a highway where the centre lane allows you to go in any direction. There are also major intersections that use two turning lanes. You would have to explore this argument. Sometimes the lane markings are barely visible and you can't tell which lane you are in. Whatever you choose, it's going to have to be believable.

Or use the right lane obstruction argument FiReSTaRT pointed out.

But remember, perjury is a major offence. Don't try to make stuff up. It's never consistent and you will be caught out. Don't use any of the arguments you have already posted. They won't work and destroy your credibility.

AND you have to work the case. Request disclosure, an explanation and clarification of the charge, the officer's notes (typed), etc. These are simple and effective faxes you can send which will improve your chances considerably.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:41 pm 
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I agree with the above posters, you have no case. Even if you had, the chance of winning would be slim to none.
The only chance to win for you is fight the ticket on a technicality.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:46 pm 
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liveontheedge wrote:
I agree with the above posters, you have no case. Even if you had, the chance of winning would be slim to none.
The only chance to win for you is fight the ticket on a technicality.


Then, could you please elaborate how can i do that on a technicality basis. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:27 pm 
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Does any one know how to fight on a technicality basis?

Any advice?

Or just pay the set fines instead of going thru the hassles in court which I don't have a chance to win.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:22 pm 
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It seems the court offer an early resolution for any traffic ticket.

It is called a First Attendance Hearing which can be done only within the 15-30 days.

Extract from the definition:
************
"To exercise this choice, you must attend the court office designated on the back of your Offence Notice to set and appointment to meet the prosecutor. A First Attendance Hearing Notice will be mailed to you. This is an informal meeting to try to resolve your charge or charges without going to trail. The investigating officer does not attend the meeting. It is your responsibility to advise the court of any change to your mailing address.

If the matter cannot be resolved, your trial option remains available and you can request a trial date by completing and filing a Notice of Intention to Appear (NIA). If you have any questions regarding your charge (witness or trial procedure) the prosecutor will be able to assist you."
*************


Has anyone requested this before?

For me, I just want to pay a lower fine and remove the 2 Demerit point from the ticket since there is no way to fight against this Improper Right Turn Ticket. Can the prosecutor lower the fine and remove the demerit point.
Thanks.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:24 pm 
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First Attendance: Usually this will be offered to you depending on where you live. You can negotiate with the Prosecutor to plead guilty to a lesser offence, which means a lower fine and probably no demerit points. Some Prosecutors just want to get any guilty plea if possible, so they'll take a municipal infraction; others play hardball. One possible plea is "fail to proceed as directed." I might be wrong but I believe it a $60 fine and no demerit points. That's probably your best option, but discuss it with the Prosecutor. First Attendance meetings can occur months after the ticket is issued.

Technicalities: Might work, but the circumstances make this difficult. Here are some of them that may apply.
1. Fatal error on the ticket. Doesn't sound like there was one, but look over it carefully. Remember, though, a fatal error has to be something really significant, like a missing date.
2. Improper disclosure. This is what ticketcombat was referring to. If the Crown does not give you the officer's notes, and other relevant information, you can get the proceedings quashed. That's not too likely to happen. Based on the charge, the only thing they'd really have to give you are the officer's notes and an explanation of the charge, which would basically involve quoting the Highway Traffic Act.
3. Officer does not show up for trial. 50% chance of that happening in Toronto, but less than 40% in surrounding areas of the GTA, 20% in places like London and Windsor.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:42 am 
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Radar Identified wrote:
First Attendance: Usually this will be offered to you depending on where you live. You can negotiate with the Prosecutor to plead guilty to a lesser offence, which means a lower fine and probably no demerit points. Some Prosecutors just want to get any guilty plea if possible, so they'll take a municipal infraction; others play hardball. One possible plea is "fail to proceed as directed." I might be wrong but I believe it a $60 fine and no demerit points. That's probably your best option, but discuss it with the Prosecutor. First Attendance meetings can occur months after the ticket is issued.

Technicalities: Might work, but the circumstances make this difficult. Here are some of them that may apply.
1. Fatal error on the ticket. Doesn't sound like there was one, but look over it carefully. Remember, though, a fatal error has to be something really significant, like a missing date.
2. Improper disclosure. This is what ticketcombat was referring to. If the Crown does not give you the officer's notes, and other relevant information, you can get the proceedings quashed. That's not too likely to happen. Based on the charge, the only thing they'd really have to give you are the officer's notes and an explanation of the charge, which would basically involve quoting the Highway Traffic Act.
3. Officer does not show up for trial. 50% chance of that happening in Toronto, but less than 40% in surrounding areas of the GTA, 20% in places like London and Windsor.



Thank you Radar Identified for giving me some hope in my situation.
Will try to ask for the Prosecutor for "fail to proceed as directed." plea.

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:55 am 
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[quote="royal123"][quote="liveontheedge"]I agree with the above posters, you have no case. Even if you had, the chance of winning would be slim to none.
The only chance to win for you is fight the ticket on a technicality.[/quote]

Then, could you please elaborate how can i do that on a technicality basis. Thanks.[/quote]

Check out the site of ticketcombat you will have a picture of how this thing goes.

The tools at your disposal are charter defence, improper disclosure, delay, cop no-show...and they all depends on where the court is, when is your trial date, what your disclosure looks like, so untill those facts emerge it is impossible to say how much your chance of beating the ticket is. But there is always a chance.

The right thing to do is to get a trial date to lay a foundation for your future denfence (there is no harm if you change your mind to plead guilty down the road).

While waiting for those facts, read up the ticketcombat site which shows you how to put together those facts to defend your case.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:29 am 
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Just make sure you clarify to the Prosecutor that you are not trying to plead guilty to something like Green Arrow - Fail to Proceed as Directed, which also has two demerit points and is a $110 fine. Actually... come to think of it... it's better to call the Prosecutor and ask to work out a deal, but don't specify what you want to plead to. Ask what is available to you and, if they offer a municipal by-law infraction instead of the improper turn or any HTA offence, definitely take it. The big consequence is on your insurance record; a by-law infraction won't affect that, but almost all HTA infractions will. Make sure you double-check that you won't get any demerit points on any infraction that you're pleading to. Good luck with it.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:19 am 
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I agree with the other posters regarding First Attendance Hearing, I will be going for mine in a few days. One thing that I don't think was mentioned about the First Attendance Hearing is that you need to wait ten (10) days before going to see the prosecutor. The reason is that the officer has 7 days to file the offense and it takes up to 3 days to process so they advise you not to go in before 10 days. Good luck to you.


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