Good day everyone here is a REAL GOOD ONE FOR YOU! THE CHARGE: Improper right turn, 141 (2) THE STORY: I'm a plow and salt truck driver for a company that is contracted by the City Of Timmins to clear the main highways through town. Yesterday November 26 2011 we were having a big storm which started around 10 AM. The roads were getting real bad later in the day and the storm was over taking our efforts. It was about 2PM and the city patrol man who monitors the road conditions and directs us as to where we go and what we do called in over the radio that the CITY POLICE had called in a request to clear and salt a section of road through town outside of what would be our normal beat on this route because the road conditions were extremely bad. A transport was stuck and cars were getting stuck! We proceeded in an echelon which is 3 trucks wide and I was the lead truck. We completed the first pass turned left went around the block and then proceeded to turn right back onto the main road. As we did so my truck lost traction and slid into a car stopped at a light on the opposite side of the road, touching his bumper just enough to break his bumper. A cop from the city shows up and charges me with the offence noted above. Kicker is I was in court a week early for a silly ticket he wrote me months ago and had it withdrawn, and it just so happened it was him to show up here. Should this not be a no fault due to weather and road conditions.
Good day everyone here is a REAL GOOD ONE FOR YOU!
THE CHARGE: Improper right turn, 141 (2)
THE STORY:
I'm a plow and salt truck driver for a company that is contracted by the City Of Timmins to clear the main highways through town. Yesterday November 26 2011 we were having a big storm which started around 10 AM. The roads were getting real bad later in the day and the storm was over taking our efforts. It was about 2PM and the city patrol man who monitors the road conditions and directs us as to where we go and what we do called in over the radio that the CITY POLICE had called in a request to clear and salt a section of road through town outside of what would be our normal beat on this route because the road conditions were extremely bad. A transport was stuck and cars were getting stuck! We proceeded in an echelon which is 3 trucks wide and I was the lead truck. We completed the first pass turned left went around the block and then proceeded to turn right back onto the main road. As we did so my truck lost traction and slid into a car stopped at a light on the opposite side of the road, touching his bumper just enough to break his bumper. A cop from the city shows up and charges me with the offence noted above. Kicker is I was in court a week early for a silly ticket he wrote me months ago and had it withdrawn, and it just so happened it was him to show up here.
Should this not be a no fault due to weather and road conditions.
Typically poor weather conditions are not considered an excuse and you're expected to drive for the conditions. The problem in your circumstance is that you were aware of the conditions, it wasn't something unknown or unexpected, like a sudden patch of black ice on a clear road.
Typically poor weather conditions are not considered an excuse and you're expected to drive for the conditions. The problem in your circumstance is that you were aware of the conditions, it wasn't something unknown or unexpected, like a sudden patch of black ice on a clear road.
Of course I was aware of the conditions in fact the police called us to go there because they were so poor. Because of the conditions my driving was also adjusted and while turning the corner the truck was going no more then 5 kmph the fact that it slid out on me in the front end enough to hit the front of the car was not expected and the very light impact from my efforts to stop the vehicle show just how bad the road was.
Stanton wrote:
Typically poor weather conditions are not considered an excuse and you're expected to drive for the conditions. The problem in your circumstance is that you were aware of the conditions, it wasn't something unknown or unexpected, like a sudden patch of black ice on a clear road.
Of course I was aware of the conditions in fact the police called us to go there because they were so poor. Because of the conditions my driving was also adjusted and while turning the corner the truck was going no more then 5 kmph the fact that it slid out on me in the front end enough to hit the front of the car was not expected and the very light impact from my efforts to stop the vehicle show just how bad the road was.
Get disclosure and see the officer notes. Also No careless? Looks like a decent enough charge for a city worker. You can plea this down. In trial though the crown will have to prove the turn you made was infact improper for what you were driving. Contacting a Paralegal might be a good idea. 141(2) reads: Right turn at intersection (2) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the right into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the right-hand lane or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway and he or she shall make the right turn by entering the right-hand lane of the intersecting highway where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway being entered. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (2).
Get disclosure and see the officer notes. Also No careless? Looks like a decent enough charge for a city worker. You can plea this down. In trial though the crown will have to prove the turn you made was infact improper for what you were driving. Contacting a Paralegal might be a good idea.
141(2) reads:
Right turn at intersection
(2) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the right into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the right-hand lane or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway and he or she shall make the right turn by entering the right-hand lane of the intersecting highway where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway being entered. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (2).
There's also: Exception (4) A driver of a road service vehicle entering an intersection within a lane other than one described in subsection (2) or (3) may make a right turn from the approach lane if the turn can be safely made. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (4).
There's also:
Exception
(4) A driver of a road service vehicle entering an intersection within a lane other than one described in subsection (2) or (3) may make a right turn from the approach lane if the turn can be safely made. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (4).
Here's the e-laws section: Turning at intersections 141. (1) In this section, "centre line" means, (a) in the case of a highway on which traffic is permitted to move in opposing directions, the marked line or median that divides traffic moving in opposing directions on the highway or, where there is no marked line or median, the centre of the roadway, and (b) in the case of a highway designated for the use of one-way traffic, the left curb or edge of the roadway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (1). Right turn at intersection (2) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the right into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the right-hand lane or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway and he or she shall make the right turn by entering the right-hand lane of the intersecting highway where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway being entered. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (2). Right turn, where multiple lanes (3) Despite subsection (2), where more than one lane of a highway has been designated as a right-turn lane, the driver or operator of a vehicle intending to turn to the right into an intersecting highway shall approach the intersection in one of the lanes and leave the intersection in the lane of the intersecting highway that corresponds to the lane from which the turn was commenced. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (3). Exception (4) A driver of a road service vehicle entering an intersection within a lane other than one described in subsection (2) or (3) may make a right turn from the approach lane if the turn can be safely made. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (4). Left turn, across path of approaching vehicle (5) No driver or operator of a vehicle in an intersection shall turn left across the path of a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction unless he or she has afforded a reasonable opportunity to the driver or operator of the approaching vehicle to avoid a collision. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (5). Left turn, at intersection (6) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the left into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the left-hand lane provided for the use of traffic moving in the direction in which his or her vehicle is proceeding or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the right of the centre line of the highway and he or she shall make the left turn by entering the intersection to the right of the centre line or its extension and by leaving the intersection in the left-hand lane provided for the use of traffic moving in the direction in which his or her vehicle is proceeding where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by passing immediately to the right of the centre line of the intersecting highway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (6). Left turn, where multiple lanes (7) Despite subsection (6), where more than one lane of a highway has been designated as a left-turn lane, the driver or operator of a vehicle intending to turn to the left into an intersecting highway shall approach the intersection in one of the lanes and leave the intersection in the lane of the intersecting highway that corresponds to the lane from which the turn was commenced. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (7). Exception (8) A driver of a road service vehicle entering an intersection within a left-turn lane may leave the intersection without turning to the left if the movement can be safely made. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (8). Long vehicles (9) Where, because of the length of a vehicle or combination of vehicles, a turn cannot be made within the confines of the lanes referred to in subsection (2), (3), (6) or (7), a driver, when making such a turn, is not in contravention of any such subsection if he or she complies with the applicable provision as closely as practicable. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (9).
Here's the e-laws section:
Turning at intersections
141. (1) In this section,
"centre line" means,
(a) in the case of a highway on which traffic is permitted to move in opposing directions, the marked line or median that divides traffic moving in opposing directions on the highway or, where there is no marked line or median, the centre of the roadway, and
(b) in the case of a highway designated for the use of one-way traffic, the left curb or edge of the roadway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (1).
Right turn at intersection
(2) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the right into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the right-hand lane or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway and he or she shall make the right turn by entering the right-hand lane of the intersecting highway where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway being entered. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (2).
Right turn, where multiple lanes
(3) Despite subsection (2), where more than one lane of a highway has been designated as a right-turn lane, the driver or operator of a vehicle intending to turn to the right into an intersecting highway shall approach the intersection in one of the lanes and leave the intersection in the lane of the intersecting highway that corresponds to the lane from which the turn was commenced. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (3).
Exception
(4) A driver of a road service vehicle entering an intersection within a lane other than one described in subsection (2) or (3) may make a right turn from the approach lane if the turn can be safely made. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (4).
Left turn, across path of approaching vehicle
(5) No driver or operator of a vehicle in an intersection shall turn left across the path of a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction unless he or she has afforded a reasonable opportunity to the driver or operator of the approaching vehicle to avoid a collision. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (5).
Left turn, at intersection
(6) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the left into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the left-hand lane provided for the use of traffic moving in the direction in which his or her vehicle is proceeding or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the right of the centre line of the highway and he or she shall make the left turn by entering the intersection to the right of the centre line or its extension and by leaving the intersection in the left-hand lane provided for the use of traffic moving in the direction in which his or her vehicle is proceeding where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by passing immediately to the right of the centre line of the intersecting highway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (6).
Left turn, where multiple lanes
(7) Despite subsection (6), where more than one lane of a highway has been designated as a left-turn lane, the driver or operator of a vehicle intending to turn to the left into an intersecting highway shall approach the intersection in one of the lanes and leave the intersection in the lane of the intersecting highway that corresponds to the lane from which the turn was commenced. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (7).
Exception
(8) A driver of a road service vehicle entering an intersection within a left-turn lane may leave the intersection without turning to the left if the movement can be safely made. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (8).
Long vehicles
(9) Where, because of the length of a vehicle or combination of vehicles, a turn cannot be made within the confines of the lanes referred to in subsection (2), (3), (6) or (7), a driver, when making such a turn, is not in contravention of any such subsection if he or she complies with the applicable provision as closely as practicable. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (9).
I wouldn't read anything into the lack of careless driving charge. I'm not saying the OP is at fault, but the charge is appropriate for the allegations.
I wouldn't read anything into the lack of careless driving charge. I'm not saying the OP is at fault, but the charge is appropriate for the allegations.
There are 3 witnesses to the fact that I waited for a green light to allow my truck and the 2 others behind safely into the road way. Those same 3 witnesses observed my speed at no more then 5 - 10 km's and correctly positioning my self as the lead truck should. It was not until the traction of the front wheels broke free because of the slight incline and caused the truck to shift left as the drive wheels were still providing sufficient traction to propel the vehicle forward and cause the collision with the other vehicle. The collision by any means was not of force as defensively the brakes were applied, but at this point there was just not enough time to stop the vehicle completely.
Squishy wrote:
The difficultly would be in finding a way to argue that the turn was safely made - especially since a collision occurred.
There are 3 witnesses to the fact that I waited for a green light to allow my truck and the 2 others behind safely into the road way. Those same 3 witnesses observed my speed at no more then 5 - 10 km's and correctly positioning my self as the lead truck should. It was not until the traction of the front wheels broke free because of the slight incline and caused the truck to shift left as the drive wheels were still providing sufficient traction to propel the vehicle forward and cause the collision with the other vehicle. The collision by any means was not of force as defensively the brakes were applied, but at this point there was just not enough time to stop the vehicle completely.
What about section (9) Long vehicles (9) Where, because of the length of a vehicle or combination of vehicles, a turn cannot be made within the confines of the lanes referred to in subsection (2), (3), (6) or (7), a driver, when making such a turn, is not in contravention of any such subsection if he or she complies with the applicable provision as closely as practicable. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (9). The length and specific duties of each of the combination of vehicles makes it impossible to keep the vehicle in the right lane as the turn is made. Even just a plain old dump truck would never be able to maintain a presence in the curb lane at this intersection.
admin wrote:
Here's the e-laws section:
Long vehicles
(9) Where, because of the length of a vehicle or combination of vehicles, a turn cannot be made within the confines of the lanes referred to in subsection (2), (3), (6) or (7), a driver, when making such a turn, is not in contravention of any such subsection if he or she complies with the applicable provision as closely as practicable. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (9).
What about section (9)
Long vehicles
(9) Where, because of the length of a vehicle or combination of vehicles, a turn cannot be made within the confines of the lanes referred to in subsection (2), (3), (6) or (7), a driver, when making such a turn, is not in contravention of any such subsection if he or she complies with the applicable provision as closely as practicable. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (9).
The length and specific duties of each of the combination of vehicles makes it impossible to keep the vehicle in the right lane as the turn is made. Even just a plain old dump truck would never be able to maintain a presence in the curb lane at this intersection.
Id suggest getting written statements from your witnesses now, while the incident is fresh in their minds. For Court, youd want to show that your driving was safe, cautious, prudent and appropriate for the weather. I dont believe its an absolute liability offence, so if you can demonstrate the above Id think theres a reasonable prospect of being found not guilty. It still might be best to seek representation since they may be better able to articulate this to the Court and cite relevant case law.
Id suggest getting written statements from your witnesses now, while the incident is fresh in their minds. For Court, youd want to show that your driving was safe, cautious, prudent and appropriate for the weather. I dont believe its an absolute liability offence, so if you can demonstrate the above Id think theres a reasonable prospect of being found not guilty. It still might be best to seek representation since they may be better able to articulate this to the Court and cite relevant case law.
throwing this out there....regardless of how many lanes, length of vehicle, speed, weather etc.....bottom line is if the other vehicle was stopped in its appropriate lane and was struck, therefore it was not a safe turn..... to me, safe means not hitting anything
throwing this out there....regardless of how many lanes, length of vehicle, speed, weather etc.....bottom line is if the other vehicle was stopped in its appropriate lane and was struck, therefore it was not a safe turn..... to me, safe means not hitting anything
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Sounds like you have a lot of facts and points to help your case. I would go there without any legal representation... statistics prove that those who attend court alone and who have all facts in order and are articulate can stand a better chance than allowing the ```middle men```to do deals on your behalf.... dont forget lawyers and paralegals charge an arm and a leg and are only ever ````practising```` law .... I always go myself to court if neccessary...much better odds...especially as the syatem is stacked against you anyway and lawyers are part of the system.... try your luck
Sounds like you have a lot of facts and points to help your case. I would go there without any legal representation... statistics prove that those who attend court alone and who have all facts in order and are articulate can stand a better chance than allowing the ```middle men```to do deals on your behalf.... dont forget lawyers and paralegals charge an arm and a leg and are only ever ````practising```` law .... I always go myself to court if neccessary...much better odds...especially as the syatem is stacked against you anyway and lawyers are part of the system.... try your luck
I finally got disclosure, so I though I would let you guys have a peak at it along with 3 out of my 4 witness statements. Let me know your opinions. Attached is the court info, officer statement and his sketch next post will have the 3 witness statement. I actually have 4 but have not had the chance to pick it up.
I finally got disclosure, so I though I would let you guys have a peak at it along with 3 out of my 4 witness statements. Let me know your opinions.
Attached is the court info, officer statement and his sketch next post will have the 3 witness statement. I actually have 4 but have not had the chance to pick it up.
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While Im no lawyer, Id say you have some excellent statements for your defence. They seem to cover off the poor road conditions, that you were driving in a reasonably safe manner for the conditions and that you were engaged in your duties at the time. Have you tried approaching the Crown yet? I personally think they might consider simply withdrawing the charges unless they truly feel they have a reasonable prospect of conviction.
While Im no lawyer, Id say you have some excellent statements for your defence. They seem to cover off the poor road conditions, that you were driving in a reasonably safe manner for the conditions and that you were engaged in your duties at the time.
Have you tried approaching the Crown yet? I personally think they might consider simply withdrawing the charges unless they truly feel they have a reasonable prospect of conviction.
I intend to speak to the Crown in a Pre Trial however for my last ticket this crown seemed to and did not have the time so they say to do such a thing. The crown however was cautioned during Trial time because of the growing size of the lists that he should start holding Pre Trials. Hopefully this time he will.
I intend to speak to the Crown in a Pre Trial however for my last ticket this crown seemed to and did not have the time so they say to do such a thing. The crown however was cautioned during Trial time because of the growing size of the lists that he should start holding Pre Trials. Hopefully this time he will.
Well today is the day and the crown has failed to contact me after multiple attempts by myself to have a pre-trial with him. Hopefuly all goes well.
fingerz wrote:
I intend to speak to the Crown in a Pre Trial however for my last ticket this crown seemed to and did not have the time so they say to do such a thing. The crown however was cautioned during Trial time because of the growing size of the lists that he should start holding Pre Trials. Hopefully this time he will.
Well today is the day and the crown has failed to contact me after multiple attempts by myself to have a pre-trial with him. Hopefuly all goes well.
Well today is the day and the crown has failed to contact me after multiple attempts by myself to have a pre-trial with him. Hopefuly all goes well. think you mean a resolution meeting prior to trial? b/c a pre-trial is still in a court room with a JP. Good luck today
fingerz wrote:
fingerz wrote:
I intend to speak to the Crown in a Pre Trial however for my last ticket this crown seemed to and did not have the time so they say to do such a thing. The crown however was cautioned during Trial time because of the growing size of the lists that he should start holding Pre Trials. Hopefully this time he will.
Well today is the day and the crown has failed to contact me after multiple attempts by myself to have a pre-trial with him. Hopefuly all goes well.
think you mean a resolution meeting prior to trial? b/c a pre-trial is still in a court room with a JP. Good luck today
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Well it's been put over until march 29th. I guess the crown thinks he has a case, but all I kept hearing him and the cop saying to each other under there breath is "4 Lanes" as in disbelief that I'm trying to say I slid across 4 lanes. It seems they fail to realize that for the operations I was performing I was intentionally 3 lanes over it's only the 4th one that my vehicle slid over on. Plus when I was there I could not believe the deals the crown was cutting, he was amending all kinds of tickets including some lady who ran into the back of someone else. For this ticket and all the others he amended he changed them to simply by-law infractions vrs HTA. He never offered me no such deal????
Well it's been put over until march 29th. I guess the crown thinks he has a case, but all I kept hearing him and the cop saying to each other under there breath is "4 Lanes" as in disbelief that I'm trying to say I slid across 4 lanes. It seems they fail to realize that for the operations I was performing I was intentionally 3 lanes over it's only the 4th one that my vehicle slid over on. Plus when I was there I could not believe the deals the crown was cutting, he was amending all kinds of tickets including some lady who ran into the back of someone else. For this ticket and all the others he amended he changed them to simply by-law infractions vrs HTA. He never offered me no such deal????
My Original posting with my story and my witness statements can be found here http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic4020.html You can see my disclosure and witness statements at that link as well. So I called the Prosecuter and explained the situation told him about my evidence statements and witnesses and now he wants me to email him copies of the statements, and My witness names and phone numbers. Should I do this, or do I have to do this?
So I called the Prosecuter and explained the situation told him about my evidence statements and witnesses and now he wants me to email him copies of the statements, and My witness names and phone numbers. Should I do this, or do I have to do this?
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I received the radar manual after one month, but not others (including maintenance/calibration record of the radar, certificate of police training). On further pursuit, the prosecutor told me that he did not have them and he did not see why I needed these documents. He said he did not know where to get them when I asked.
Last Friday I was pulled over by an OPP motorcycle cop who informed me I was going 134. I was on the SB 404, I did see him parked under a bridge and when I passed him he was not on his bike.
I'm hoping to get some insight for a defense in this case.
I was in lane 1 and I had a car in front of me, and a car behind me, also there was a car speeding down Lane 3 passing everyone and moved quickly into…
