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Off_Camber
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by: Off_Camber on
Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:25 pm

Squishy wrote:So I can jump in a plane and fly it around because I have not signed anything to do with a pilot's licence and thus am not bound by any aviation laws?

I can go enter restricted airspace and refuse to be shot down because I do not consent to their laws. We'll see how that goes.
you really do live in Orillia....Next Stop....Moosonee :arrow:

:D

and seeing as VIA rail On strike, and Airlines dropping out of thesky like a blacklflies cuz of the economy, Id say our choices are getting more "LIMITED" tohisFreedom of Movement thing... :? could always hitch hike :idea:


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Squishy
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by: Squishy on
Sat Jul 25, 2009 11:34 pm

:lol: Are there really no roads up to there? I should go exploring someday with the Escape.

Hey! I can demand the government supply me with a plane and flying lessons because I want to travel there. I KNOW MY RIGHTS!
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by: CoolChick on
Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:46 am

You miss the point ...

You are bound by common law remember ? So you will be committing a crime if you cause harm loss or injury to anyone. If you were to attempt to fly a plane and cause it to land on property or a human being you would be liable to be tried under common law....Under common law we are all responsible for causing harm to anyone or loss or injury by any means.

People parading or protesting would be exercising their rights... my right to travel would allow me to travel along another route because if I were to plough right through them i would cause harm injury and probably loss.


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by: CoolChick on
Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:54 am

Squishy wrote::lol: Are there really no roads up to there? I should go exploring someday with the Escape.

Hey! I can demand the government supply me with a plane and flying lessons because I want to travel there. I KNOW MY RIGHTS!
Actually you are learning.... We actually do have a right to Education... which is clear when you see that so far children are freely educated.... for some reason it stops being free after high school.... maybe thats got something to do with your signature being valid at adulthood... just a guess !!!!!!!!!!!


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Squishy
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by: Squishy on
Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:19 am

No one is being harmed simply by my flying through restricted airspace (other than myself after being shot down).

Let's consider the Royal Commission Inquiry into Civil Rights, where chairman James McRuer wrote the following on pp. 730‑31 of Report No. 1, vol. 2:
It might well be that the police should have greater powers to control and investigate the use of motor vehicles on the highway. A motor vehicle is a dangerous machine. If it is not carefully used, it is a lethal one. It is a convenient vehicle for the commission of crimes of all sorts. Those who take motor vehicles on the highway have no civil right to do so. They may do so only if they hold a licence for that purpose. That requirement is no invasion of civil rights.
[emphasis mine]
Additionally, section 31 of the Highway Traffic Act reads:
Driving a privilege

31. The purpose of this Part is to protect the public by ensuring that,

(a) the privilege of driving on a highway is granted to, and retained by, only those persons who demonstrate that they are likely to drive safely; and

(b) full driving privileges are granted to novice and probationary drivers only after they acquire experience and develop or improve safe driving skills in controlled conditions. 1993, c. 40, s. 1.
You may challenge that in court and get a judge to agree with you, but until that happens, driving is a privilege as explicitly stated in law (yes, the HTA is "law").
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by: hwybear on
Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:37 am

Education is not free, government forces us to send kids there.. Our property tax pays for that....before we have children, while we have children and until we die we pay taxes for education. I can not imagine the rise if we had to foot the bill for education beyond high school, those persons are old enough to get their butt out of the house and go to work and earn some money to pay for their own education. What education part seems to be free is the lazy ass parents that won't feed their kids and we foot more of the bill for that too!

Maybe next time I go to enter another country, when they ask a question, Just tell the customs "I have the right to travel there"....wonder how that goes.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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by: CoolChick on
Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:26 pm

Squishy... If you harm yourself or cause injury to yourself because of your actions maybe you could be classed as certifiably insane.... just a thought !!!

We have a natural right to do so (re: your bolded sentence) also insofar as a motor vehicle being a dangerous weapon.....the same could be said of a lawnmower !!!!

Quoting from an ACT is no use !!! It is an ACT.... it is no coincidence that it is called an ACT..... follow me ? People HAVE challenged it... and won.... !!!!


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by: CoolChick on
Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:39 pm

hwybear wrote:Education is not free, government forces us to send kids there.. Our property tax pays for that....before we have children, while we have children and until we die we pay taxes for education. I can not imagine the rise if we had to foot the bill for education beyond high school, those persons are old enough to get their butt out of the house and go to work and earn some money to pay for their own education. What education part seems to be free is the lazy ass parents that won't feed their kids and we foot more of the bill for that too!

Maybe next time I go to enter another country, when they ask a question, Just tell the customs "I have the right to travel there"....wonder how that goes.
Hello Bear

Actually we are not FORCED to send children to school, we can opt to home school ! Only people who pay property tax are contributing to education for all children....many people rent and do not directly contribute to education.

What about education for the disabled or the mentally challenged ? Are they lazy and should they get their lazy asses out there too?

Poverty is the cause of crime much of the time...so maybe taking a good look at ending poverty would produce a solution....But I doubt that will happen because the government NEEDS crime to pay salaries..including yours !!! Thats why these Acts are valuable to the government it is revenue... it is not about rights, which is what it should be.

Incidently there are some people travelling as we speak without a passport... maybe you should look into it. I am not as stupid as you think I sound !!!


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Squishy
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by: Squishy on
Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:58 pm

Got any case law showing that s. 31 of the HTA has been successfully challenged in any court of law?

The closest thing I can find to your position are a few cases, mostly in the US, but notably R v. Rowland in Alberta, where driving was deemed a "near right" subject to the driver demonstrating competency. That is, you can't be arbitrarily denied a driver's license, but legislation for the interest of public safety may require you to show that you can safely operate the machine. This would include abiding by traffic laws set by the province, unless you can show that they serve no interest for public safety. Skimming through the HTA, I can't see one that isn't related to safety. I have already shown how the original topic of this thread, an obstructed plate, can pose a danger by obscuring or confusing the identity of the driver.
Squishy... If you harm yourself or cause injury to yourself because of your actions maybe you could be classed as certifiably insane.... just a thought !!!
You're getting off-track here. It is your assertion that we have an absolute right to mobility, through any means. If I choose to exercise that right by flying an airplane (without signing anything; not consenting to aviation laws), then by your argument I should be allowed to fly anywhere I choose to without the government interfering.

But should I do a few repeated low fly-bys of Parliament, I'd bet I'd have a couple of Hornets escorting me to the ground. Violation of rights?
Last edited by Squishy on Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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CoolChick
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by: CoolChick on
Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:04 pm

Then maybe instead of a licence which requires our consent.... why dont they give a certificate of competency which would not require our signatures? It would amount to the same, in that our competency to not be a danger is proven. My point is: they do not need our consent ... it is not neccessary to have people enter into contracts to prove their skills or abilities. The contracts are only there for revenue !!!!!


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Squishy
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by: Squishy on
Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:29 pm

Can someone with a JP buddy either confirm or refute this "consent" thing, or at least know of some legal determination supporting either side? I'll admit that, while it sounds fishy to me, I have little knowledge in that part of law (i.e., the "technicalities").

My thought is that simply by entering the province, you have consented to all applicable laws. You can choose to challenge the law as being unconstitutional, heck, you can even challenge the constitution, but that's "Step 2". Step 1 involves getting charged if you have broken the law, regardless of any signature or place of residence. Until the law is successfully challenged and deemed unenforceable, that part of an "Act" is still the law.

Then again, the legal system works in odd ways.
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CoolChick
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by: CoolChick on
Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:55 pm

I can show you a few successes...but first I am interested in hearing what people have to say on the matter. Your desire to learn more is quite uplifting.

Just because you are a 'resident' of a place does not mean you have to consent to anything...free will comes into play with all consents.

A plant is a resident of a place, but it cannot consent to anything !!!! why should a human being ?


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Radar Identified
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by: Radar Identified on
Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:36 pm

CoolChick wrote:As for the ignoramous who suggests we can leave if we dont like it...Why should people leave...
EXCUSE ME?! There's a good one - use personal insults. :roll: A good indicator that you've got nothing to support your ideas. And guess what - I'll reiterate it for YOUR benefit: if you don't like Canada, you can leave. You have that right. If you don't like the government, you can vote for a new one. But you can't decide which laws you will and won't follow. Calling someone an ignoramus is not going to change that. Nice try, though.

EDIT: Since you're so convinced you're right, why haven't you proven otherwise in real life?


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Squishy
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by: Squishy on
Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:09 pm

CoolChick wrote:A plant is a resident of a place, but it cannot consent to anything !!!! why should a human being ?
Humans have a bit more reasoning capacity than plants do. Attempting to treat humans, other animals, and plants as equals is (for lack of a better term) crazy hippy-talk.
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CoolChick
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by: CoolChick on
Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:49 pm

Radar Identified wrote:
CoolChick wrote:As for the ignoramous who suggests we can leave if we dont like it...Why should people leave...
EXCUSE ME?! There's a good one - use personal insults. :roll: A good indicator that you've got nothing to support your ideas. And guess what - I'll reiterate it for YOUR benefit: if you don't like Canada, you can leave. You have that right. If you don't like the government, you can vote for a new one. But you can't decide which laws you will and won't follow. Calling someone an ignoramus is not going to change that. Nice try, though.

EDIT: Since you're so convinced you're right, why haven't you proven otherwise in real life?
It wasn't written as an insult so I am sorry you took it as such. Telling someone to leave somewhere is rather rude and ignorant, so I was making an observation. You might be surprised what we can do as human being beings as opposed to legal fictions. I wont take offence at you...as you have been so very helpful in other areas...and for that I thank you !

How do you know I haven't proven certain things in real life ?


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