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Charged with 172(1) -- Seeking advice
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:00 pm 
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Hello everyone,

Exactly a week ago today, I was caught going 135 in an 80, on Highway 3 near Windsor, Ontario. I know this is just completely idiotic and there hasn't been a minute since I was charged that I haven't been smacking myself for this. I'm very, very remorseful and just overall torn about this.

Background information on me:

I'm only 17, turning 18 in a few months. I have a G2 licence. I am male. This is my first (and hopefully only...) infraction on my record.

What happened:

My (stupid) excuse for going this speed was the lanes on the highway were merging a few lights away and I wanted to pass a rather large truck that was in the left lane so I wouldn't be stuck behind it for the rest of my drive (~30 minutes, I was on my way to pick up family members from their workplaces). As there were no other cars near me, I started speeding up in hopes of passing the truck when I noticed a cop car on the side of the road. My heart sank to my stomach when I glanced at my speedometer and realized the speed I was going. Low and behold, the cop pulled out and I pulled over. The cop told me he had me at 137, but clocked me in at 135.

Please keep in mind I'm not trying to justify going that speed at all. I know how stupid it was.

My licence was suspended for 7 days, parents' car impounded for 7 days and I received a court summons for "Race a motor vehicle" contrary to section 172(1) of The HTA.

I just got my (parents') car back today. The impound and towing fees were $500. I also received a letter in the mail from the HTO with a temporary licence.

Questions:

1) So, my court date is in less than a month. From what I've been reading online, if the speed isn't grossly over the 50+ threshold, the Crown often offers a deal to pleading guilty to 49 over and not the stunt driving/racing charge. I was 6km (or 8km? if the cop clocked me in at 135, is this speed they use in court?) over this threshold, so I'm hoping and praying this will be the case for me. How likely is this?

2) I have no idea how my court date works. Is the first summons where the prosecutor would likely offer me a plea deal? If not, am I screwed? What would happen if I was offered no deal? Do I approach the prosecutor and request a lesser charge?

3) Should I hire a paralegal or a lawyer for something like this? Do I need to hire them before my first court date, or should I just attend the first summons and see if I'm offered the 49 over plea bargain?

As I said, I'm hoping and praying that the Crown will have mercy on me and drop the race a motor vehicle charge. I'm paying for everything (as I should) out of my very shallow pockets, including the towing, impound, lawyer and fine fees. I'm going into my first year of University in September, and I was hoping to buy a car to drive to and from my second year. If I get convicted of the race a motor vehicle charge, my insurance will be completely unaffordable for the next three years and I have no idea how I would afford going to University.

I'll be checking this thread regularly for any advice, so thank you in advance to anyone who replies!

I'll also be sure to post the results of whatever happens after my court date so if anyone in a similar situation comes across this thread, they'll at least be able to know the outcome of my situation.


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Re: Charged with 172(1) -- Seeking advice
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:47 pm 
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Step 1.) Request disclosure. Google it and you'll find out the process - you can fax them your request.

After that, see if you have a case, and if you don't, take a deal - they'll 'usually' offer you a deal, if you've never had a prior I'd be surprised if they don't offer you one. It's the luck of the draw really, it depends on how accepting your prosecutor is.

If you DO have a case, or feel that you do. I'd recommend hiring someone, I wouldn't want you to go to court with a charge this serious and mess up and end up getting you convicted.

Currently on my phone, but there is numerous case laws relating to this charge where people have won. See if you can find them on Canlii, or I'll look into it tomorrow to see if I can.


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Re: Charged with 172(1) -- Seeking advice
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:46 am 
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If you are appearing the very first time for the date on the summons, then that will not be your actual trial date. You can of course plead guilty and be done with it, but I would not recommend that because this is serious offence. The prosecutor MAY offer you a deal at this time, which you could also take but again not recommended.

Best advice at this stage is to show up to court, and check in and then you will probably sit down with prosecutor and you can just nicely say that you would like to get a copy of the disclosure before you decide how you are going to plead, and that you will be seeking legal advice and would like to set another date. You probably don't need to get a lawyer/paralegal to do this first date if you are going to just ask for disclosure and set another date.

Anyways getting disclosure is the key because then you will know exactly what their case is against you and then you can go see a lawyer to decide what to do next.

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Re: Charged with 172(1) -- Seeking advice
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:31 pm 
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Sonic wrote:
Step 1.) Request disclosure. Google it and you'll find out the process - you can fax them your request.

After that, see if you have a case, and if you don't, take a deal - they'll 'usually' offer you a deal, if you've never had a prior I'd be surprised if they don't offer you one. It's the luck of the draw really, it depends on how accepting your prosecutor is.

If you DO have a case, or feel that you do. I'd recommend hiring someone, I wouldn't want you to go to court with a charge this serious and mess up and end up getting you convicted.

Currently on my phone, but there is numerous case laws relating to this charge where people have won. See if you can find them on Canlii, or I'll look into it tomorrow to see if I can.


jsherk wrote:
If you are appearing the very first time for the date on the summons, then that will not be your actual trial date. You can of course plead guilty and be done with it, but I would not recommend that because this is serious offence. The prosecutor MAY offer you a deal at this time, which you could also take but again not recommended.

Best advice at this stage is to show up to court, and check in and then you will probably sit down with prosecutor and you can just nicely say that you would like to get a copy of the disclosure before you decide how you are going to plead, and that you will be seeking legal advice and would like to set another date. You probably don't need to get a lawyer/paralegal to do this first date if you are going to just ask for disclosure and set another date.

Anyways getting disclosure is the key because then you will know exactly what their case is against you and then you can go see a lawyer to decide what to do next.


Thanks for the advice, guys. My court date is in about a week and I'm extremely nervous. I decided not to get a paralegal/lawyer for my first court date, and to also wait until my first date to receive my disclosure. Is this a mistake? I still have a bit of time to get a paralegal -- should I do that? What happens if I'm not offered a plea deal?

Also, I went to Service Ontario to reinstate my license, and I was informed I did not have to pay the $150 reinstatement fee. Does anyone have any idea why?


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Re: Charged with 172(1) -- Seeking advice
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:55 pm 
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When the officer pulled you over, what did he give you (it will say what it is at the top of whatever he gave you)?

Did the officer give you a SUMMONS with a court date on it to appear?

Or did the officer give you a NOTICE OF OFFENCE that you signed and mailed in and then they sent you a NOTICE OF TRIAL or NOTICE OF EARLY RESOLUTION?

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Re: Charged with 172(1) -- Seeking advice
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:31 am 
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jsherk wrote:
When the officer pulled you over, what did he give you (it will say what it is at the top of whatever he gave you)?

Did the officer give you a SUMMONS with a court date on it to appear?

Or did the officer give you a NOTICE OF OFFENCE that you signed and mailed in and then they sent you a NOTICE OF TRIAL or NOTICE OF EARLY RESOLUTION?


He gave me a summons, with a court date.


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Re: Charged with 172(1) -- Seeking advice
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:14 am 
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Okay so the first court date for a summons is NOT your trial date yet.

Again, you should (almost always) request disclosure before you agree to make a plea. Disclosure is very very important to see what their case actually is against you.

The prosecutor might offer you some kind of plea deal if you plead guilty right away to some lesser charge, but also might not.

So three possible scenarios I can think of (1, 2a and 2b)...

#1- Prosecutor does NOT offer you any kind of plea deal:
Nicely say that you would like to get a copy of the disclosure and seek legal advice before you decide how you are going to plead, and would like to set another date.
If they did not offer a plea deal this time, there is still a chance they might offer you one at the next court date after you have received disclosure.

#2a- Prosecutor offers you some kind of plea deal:
Nicely say that you would like to get a copy of the disclosure and seek legal advice before you decide whether you should accept the offer, and would like to set another date.
If prosecutor says "okay", then this is good because it means they will still be open to the plea offer after you get disclosure.

#2b- Prosecutor offers you some kind of plea deal:
Nicely say that you would like to get a copy of the disclosure and seek legal advice before you decide whether you should accept the offer, and would like to set another date.
If the prosecutor says something along the lines of "the plea offer may not be available at the next court date" then you have a very very tough decision to make... do you accept the plea that they are offering right now without seeing disclosure, or do you hold out for disclosure with the potential of them pursuing you on the full charge without offering you any further plea deal.

Hope this helps

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Re: Charged with 172(1) -- Seeking advice
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:00 pm 
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HTA25 wrote:
Also, I went to Service Ontario to reinstate my license, and I was informed I did not have to pay the $150 reinstatement fee. Does anyone have any idea why?


Any time your licence gets suspended, MTO (by extension Service Ontario) wants $150 to make it valid again. They say it's due to administrative costs. I think $150 is a cash grab, but that's just my opinion.

As they are saying above... get disclosure first. My recommendation would be to consider hiring some sort of representative for you. Call around, see what you can get. Most importantly, make sure that the person you call is professional, listens and takes the time to explain things to you.

HTA25 wrote:
1) So, my court date is in less than a month. From what I've been reading online, if the speed isn't grossly over the 50+ threshold, the Crown often offers a deal to pleading guilty to 49 over and not the stunt driving/racing charge. I was 6km (or 8km? if the cop clocked me in at 135, is this speed they use in court?) over this threshold, so I'm hoping and praying this will be the case for me. How likely is this?


If you are plea bargaining, you want to tell the Prosecutor that you've learned a lesson, you are remorseful, etc. Basically you made a youthful error and have learned from it, you're aware of the seriousness of the offence, etc. Words like that.

With stunt driving, if you go to trial, they have to prove the "essential elements" (not exactly legal terms but whatever) of the offence. Unlike regular speeding, with stunt driving 50 km/h or more over, you have "due diligence" defence available to you, as well as "defence of necessity." This means that you took reasonable steps to avoid driving 50 km/h or more over the speed limit. The Court of Appeal for Ontario gave a scenario that would fit when they ruled on this a couple of years ago: Driver X pulls out to pass, driver Y is a demented kamikaze coming up behind them like a bat out of hell, so although driver X had no intent to drive 50 km/h over the limit at the outset, was forced to momentarily accelerate to avoid a collision or being in a much more precarious situation. It doesn't sound like these defences would work for you, based on what you said (you had the choice of slowing down and merging back in).

However, you need disclosure of the officer's notes and the relevant parts of the radar/laser manual. Get those (or have you representative get them) and make a decision from there as to whether you want to plea bargain or go another route. (I realize this is just reiterating what's been posted above but still it is worth repeating.)

_________________
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


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Re: Charged with 172(1) -- Seeking advice
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:52 am 
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jsherk wrote:
So three possible scenarios I can think of (1, 2a and 2b)...

#1- Prosecutor does NOT offer you any kind of plea deal:
Nicely say that you would like to get a copy of the disclosure and seek legal advice before you decide how you are going to plead, and would like to set another date.
If they did not offer a plea deal this time, there is still a chance they might offer you one at the next court date after you have received disclosure.

#2a- Prosecutor offers you some kind of plea deal:
Nicely say that you would like to get a copy of the disclosure and seek legal advice before you decide whether you should accept the offer, and would like to set another date.
If prosecutor says "okay", then this is good because it means they will still be open to the plea offer after you get disclosure.

#2b- Prosecutor offers you some kind of plea deal:
Nicely say that you would like to get a copy of the disclosure and seek legal advice before you decide whether you should accept the offer, and would like to set another date.
If the prosecutor says something along the lines of "the plea offer may not be available at the next court date" then you have a very very tough decision to make... do you accept the plea that they are offering right now without seeing disclosure, or do you hold out for disclosure with the potential of them pursuing you on the full charge without offering you any further plea deal.

Hope this helps


This definitely did help a lot, thank you. I'm praying that I'm offered a plea deal right off the bat, since I doubt anything in the disclosure would be sufficient in getting the charges completely dropped (the cop was parked parallel to me as I passed by, on a flat road with very few cars, from what I remember). How likely would you say scenarios #2a and #2b are? Like I said in my original post, from what I've read, most people are offered this plea deal but it's sort of a gamble to expect it.

Radar Identified wrote:

Any time your licence gets suspended, MTO (by extension Service Ontario) wants $150 to make it valid again. They say it's due to administrative costs. I think $150 is a cash grab, but that's just my opinion.



I know, but I did not have to pay the $150 fee, according to the lady I spoke to at Service Ontario. When I received my temporary license, there weren't any fees/conditions listed on it, but from what I had read online about this charge, I knew I had $150 to pay. But when I visited the Service Ontario to do so, they weren't able to find any impending fees for me in the system. I received my full license in the mail already and everything.

Radar Identified wrote:

If you are plea bargaining, you want to tell the Prosecutor that you've learned a lesson, you are remorseful, etc. Basically you made a youthful error and have learned from it, you're aware of the seriousness of the offence, etc. Words like that.

With stunt driving, if you go to trial, they have to prove the "essential elements" (not exactly legal terms but whatever) of the offence. Unlike regular speeding, with stunt driving 50 km/h or more over, you have "due diligence" defence available to you, as well as "defence of necessity." This means that you took reasonable steps to avoid driving 50 km/h or more over the speed limit. The Court of Appeal for Ontario gave a scenario that would fit when they ruled on this a couple of years ago: Driver X pulls out to pass, driver Y is a demented kamikaze coming up behind them like a bat out of hell, so although driver X had no intent to drive 50 km/h over the limit at the outset, was forced to momentarily accelerate to avoid a collision or being in a much more precarious situation. It doesn't sound like these defences would work for you, based on what you said (you had the choice of slowing down and merging back in).

However, you need disclosure of the officer's notes and the relevant parts of the radar/laser manual. Get those (or have you representative get them) and make a decision from there as to whether you want to plea bargain or go another route. (I realize this is just reiterating what's been posted above but still it is worth repeating.)


I will definitely seek disclosure and legal aid if I'm not offered a plea deal. I'm just scared that on my first date, they'll proceed directly to the trial without offering me a plea bargain and without me having the chance to seek legal help and then I'll really be royally screwed. Is this possible?

Thanks again to the both of you for your detailed answers. I really appreciate it.


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Re: Charged with 172(1) -- Seeking advice
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:09 am 
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HTA25 wrote:
I know, but I did not have to pay the $150 fee, according to the lady I spoke to at Service Ontario.


Oops, I misread your post... that's what happens when you read too quickly. Anyway... Maybe it was due to it being an Administrative suspension only? Don't know.

HTA25 wrote:
I will definitely seek disclosure and legal aid if I'm not offered a plea deal. I'm just scared that on my first date, they'll proceed directly to the trial without offering me a plea bargain and without me having the chance to seek legal help and then I'll really be royally screwed. Is this possible?


Not a chance. If they try it, ask for an adjournment on the basis that you are not ready to proceed to trial and need more time for disclosure review, etc.

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http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


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Re: Charged with 172(1) -- Seeking advice
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:23 pm 
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HTA25 -- hope it all works out for you. Could you provide an update when you're available.

Cheers


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Re: Charged with 172(1) -- Seeking advice
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:01 pm 
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Radar Identified wrote:
Not a chance. If they try it, ask for an adjournment on the basis that you are not ready to proceed to trial and need more time for disclosure review, etc.
Thanks again, this calmed me down some.

Last question... do you/does anyone know how I should approach the prosecutor if I'm not immediately offered a plea deal? I don't want to just approach him or her asking for one and come off as arrogant or like I'm expecting them to give me one.

rpumpkin wrote:
HTA25 -- hope it all works out for you. Could you provide an update when you're available.
Cheers
I'll definitely post the outcome as soon as it's over.


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Re: Charged with 172(1) -- Seeking advice
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:13 pm 
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So, nothing happened. I went to court and didn't have a chance to speak with the prosecutor beforehand. I sat in a pew and waited for my name to be called.

When it was called, I stood before the JP and my charges were read to me. She then asked me how I wanted to proceed with this case. I told her I would like to receive disclosure, and she said I needed to request that at the customer service booth outside the courtroom. She then asked me if I wanted to retain a lawyer or agent for this case, and I said yes (in case I receive no plea deal). I then politely asked if it would be possible to speak with the crown beforehand and she said gave me a new court date for the 27th which is to "make arrangements to meet with the Crown Prosecutor for possible resolution prior to your next appearance." However, they also gave me a separate piece of paper with instructions on how to speak to the CP on my hand beforehand, which I will be doing this Thursday.

As of now, I'm going to speak with the CP alone... Is this a time where I should seek a lawyer to come along/talk to him? If he doesn't offer me an initial plea, would a lawyer likely be able to come and get him to offer one at a future date?


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Re: Charged with 172(1) -- Seeking advice
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:28 pm 
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Well you still want to get disclosure, if you can, before you speak with prosecutor. If you applied for disclosure, prosecutor MIGHT have it for you a meeting.

You probably still don't need a lawyer yet, and everything said above still applies.

The prosecutor may or may not offer you a plea deal at this meeting, and you may or may not have received disclosure yet.

Personally, I would not accept a plea deal until I have reviewed the disclosure, but you are not me, so you need to decide whats best for you.

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Re: Charged with 172(1) -- Seeking advice
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:01 pm 
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I am happy to report that the meeting with the Prosecutor went very well and my charge was reduced to 49 over. It stills suck, a lot, but it's a whole hell lot better than the stunt driving conviction and all the baggage that comes with it.

At the meeting, I was super remorseful and honest, and the Prosecutor seemed to recognize that, along with the fact that I have a clean driving record other than this. He talked about how insurance wouldn't even cover me or if they will it'll be a 100-150% increase and that he could "give me a break, but it's not great." When I heard that my heart kind of dropped because I figured that meant he was just reducing the fine to $1000 instead of $2000 or something along those lines, but he ended up giving me the 49 over deal with the 4 demerit points.

I'm still going to try and get my disclosure and see if there are any glaring holes in it that would result in getting my case completely dropped, but I seriously doubt it. It happened on a clear day, the officer was parked on the side of the road facing the driver side of traffic and there barely any other cars on the road. (Is getting disclosure even possible after I accept a plea deal??) I think this deal is the best thing anyone with this charge could expect, so I'm really happy. I saved money on a paralegal/lawyer who probably would have gotten me the same deal, if not worse.

However, I realize that with a G2 license, receiving the ticket for 49 over with 4 demerit points will merit me a month long suspension... how exactly is insurance going to take that? I was under the impression that it's just as bad as the stunt driving charge (100%+ increase)... is this the case?

I did a few free insurance quotes online, and with a clean driving record, my insurance would be $5,507. With the stunt driving charge, it would be $14,105 (major ouch). With the speeding charge and the month long suspension, it would be $6,294. How accurate is this??

If it's still a 100% or more increase, would receiving 3 demerit points instead of 4 effectively avoid the suspension? Although I seriously doubt the prosecutor would lower the amount of demerit points on the charge, and I really don't want to be greedy and push my luck.


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