7 months ago, I was pulled over on the 401 westbound in Mississauga at 9pm (it was dark) in moderate to heavy traffic. I was doing (maybe) 120, the officer said he clocked me at 141 km. I decided to fight the charge and requested full disclosure. It never arrived, so on my court date (the officer showed), I was able to reschedule my trial until Jan 2010! Here are my questions: 1.) The officer that pulled me over was in the first week on the job as a cop. A trainee officer accompanied him to my car and kept correcting him as he questioned me through my passenger window. Is this police officer (that was doing the training) required to show up at my trial? If he does (and doesn't show), how do I ask the judge for the charge to be dropped? 2.) In the disclosure (which I received only at the pre-trial - which was the grounds on which I was able to have the case rescheduled) the officer wrote that I was in lane "2 of 4." Which lane is this? Is lane 4 the fast lane or the slow lane? 3.) Is there anyway a police sitting still can read the license plate of a car that passes it at 141km? 4.) My argument is that the officer pulled over the wrong car. So far, my case is: - get the cop to agree he was making mistakes (when he questioned me and cast doubt that he pulled over the wrong car since it was dark and the speed trap was on a part of the highway that goes around a 90 degree bend. - If the the training officer does not show up (but is supposed too) then have the case dismissed. - I had moved over to the slow lane (before) the cop turned on his flashing lights. In his notes he wrote that I was in lane 2 of 4. He doesn't say the speeding car changed lanes, so I am thinking this could help discredit the case against me. Your thoughts? Thank you!
7 months ago, I was pulled over on the 401 westbound in Mississauga at 9pm (it was dark) in moderate to heavy traffic. I was doing (maybe) 120, the officer said he clocked me at 141 km.
I decided to fight the charge and requested full disclosure. It never arrived, so on my court date (the officer showed), I was able to reschedule my trial until Jan 2010!
Here are my questions:
1.) The officer that pulled me over was in the first week on the job as a cop. A trainee officer accompanied him to my car and kept correcting him as he questioned me through my passenger window.
Is this police officer (that was doing the training) required to show up at my trial? If he does (and doesn't show), how do I ask the judge for the charge to be dropped?
2.) In the disclosure (which I received only at the pre-trial - which was the grounds on which I was able to have the case rescheduled) the officer wrote that I was in lane "2 of 4." Which lane is this? Is lane 4 the fast lane or the slow lane?
3.) Is there anyway a police sitting still can read the license plate of a car that passes it at 141km?
4.) My argument is that the officer pulled over the wrong car. So far, my case is:
- get the cop to agree he was making mistakes (when he questioned me
and cast doubt that he pulled over the wrong car since it was dark and the speed trap was on a part of the highway that goes around a 90 degree bend.
- If the the training officer does not show up (but is supposed too) then have the case dismissed.
- I had moved over to the slow lane (before) the cop turned on his flashing lights. In his notes he wrote that I was in lane 2 of 4. He doesn't say the speeding car changed lanes, so I am thinking this could help discredit the case against me.
Not unless the training officer took the reading or observed you first or was the one keeping track of the vehicle. If he was just there and coaching, I'm going to say no. Lane 2 usually means the second-to-left lane. Lane 1 is the fast lane, lane 4 would be the right-most lane. In the dark, at a distance, probably not. But they don't have to read the plate, they only have to identify the vehicle and not lose sight of it, if that's what your asking. What were the traffic conditions like? Did you get passed by other vehicle(s) as you were driving along? Did the officer complete a tracking history? (Observed vehicle first, THEN activated speed measuring device.) The officer was new, maybe he didn't, even with guidance from his coach officer. You never know. But they must visually observe you first, they can't just randomly shoot the lidar at all sorts of vehicles until one of them registers a magic number. For example, in the R. v. Desgagne case, Cst. Parsons of the RCMP (who has over 10 000 hours of radar operation experience and is a radar instructor) stated in court that a tracking history was required. Here's an example of a charge being quashed for improper tracking history: R. v. Hawkins, 2009 Some questions to think of for court... After taking the reading, if there was traffic around, how did they keep track of the speeding vehicle? How long did it take them to put the car in motion to chase after you? It was dark, how could they tell they stopped the correct vehicle? The traffic situation may be your friend here. If you can create a reasonable doubt, showing that they likely lost sight of the vehicle, spotted something that looked similar and pulled it over, that might work. Make sure you get the officer to testify about the darkness... if he could visually distinguish the make, model and colour of each vehicle as it passed by his location at the time. Will it work? Don't know. Prepping these things at the last minute is very difficult. If they offer a reduced speed, I'd suggest taking their offer.
torontoguy398 wrote:
Is this police officer (that was doing the training) required to show up at my trial?
Not unless the training officer took the reading or observed you first or was the one keeping track of the vehicle. If he was just there and coaching, I'm going to say no.
torontoguy398 wrote:
2.) In the disclosure (which I received only at the pre-trial - which was the grounds on which I was able to have the case rescheduled) the officer wrote that I was in lane "2 of 4." Which lane is this? Is lane 4 the fast lane or the slow lane?
Lane 2 usually means the second-to-left lane. Lane 1 is the fast lane, lane 4 would be the right-most lane.
torontoguy398 wrote:
3.) Is there anyway a police sitting still can read the license plate of a car that passes it at 141km?
In the dark, at a distance, probably not. But they don't have to read the plate, they only have to identify the vehicle and not lose sight of it, if that's what your asking. What were the traffic conditions like? Did you get passed by other vehicle(s) as you were driving along?
Did the officer complete a tracking history? (Observed vehicle first, THEN activated speed measuring device.) The officer was new, maybe he didn't, even with guidance from his coach officer. You never know. But they must visually observe you first, they can't just randomly shoot the lidar at all sorts of vehicles until one of them registers a magic number. For example, in the R. v. Desgagne case, Cst. Parsons of the RCMP (who has over 10 000 hours of radar operation experience and is a radar instructor) stated in court that a tracking history was required. Here's an example of a charge being quashed for improper tracking history:
Some questions to think of for court... After taking the reading, if there was traffic around, how did they keep track of the speeding vehicle? How long did it take them to put the car in motion to chase after you? It was dark, how could they tell they stopped the correct vehicle? The traffic situation may be your friend here. If you can create a reasonable doubt, showing that they likely lost sight of the vehicle, spotted something that looked similar and pulled it over, that might work. Make sure you get the officer to testify about the darkness... if he could visually distinguish the make, model and colour of each vehicle as it passed by his location at the time. Will it work? Don't know.
Prepping these things at the last minute is very difficult. If they offer a reduced speed, I'd suggest taking their offer.
Last edited by Radar Identified on Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
Hi Radar Identified, Thanks for your feedback! I didn't get a chance to read your reply before I went to court today, but I ended up taking your advice anyway and plead the charge down to $112 from $300. The cop showed. So before court, I figured I had already had 2 spins at the wheel for him to not show, and decided to play it safe and go for the lesser charge. Although I am still worried about how much my insurance will increase. I really appreciate your forum though!
Hi Radar Identified,
Thanks for your feedback!
I didn't get a chance to read your reply before I went to court today, but I ended up taking your advice anyway and plead the charge down to $112 from $300.
The cop showed. So before court, I figured I had already had 2 spins at the wheel for him to not show, and decided to play it safe and go for the lesser charge. Although I am still worried about how much my insurance will increase.
Glad to hear that it worked out - $112 is a lot better than $300 and you saved a few demerit points. Your insurer may forgive the one ticket, you never know. Regardless, unless you have a plethora of other tickets, it shouldn't be too devastating of an increase.
Glad to hear that it worked out - $112 is a lot better than $300 and you saved a few demerit points. Your insurer may forgive the one ticket, you never know. Regardless, unless you have a plethora of other tickets, it shouldn't be too devastating of an increase.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
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