Hi folks, I was doing some "creative" passing maneuvers when I got pulled. Maybe I could argue that I was trying to avoid a dangerously erratic driver beside me. Though I've read that this type of defence is weak. Anyway, I went for early resolution thinking I could get the charge dismissed at that stage. NOT! So the guy there gave me a copy of the officers handwritten disclosure on the spot. DOH! However, this document is 90% illegible and the quoted colour of my car is wrong. The speed is clearly written though, 130 > 135. So 40+ over. My questions are, should I just take this copy of the disclosure to trial and ask for another trial date on the grounds that I could not prepare a proper defence? Or should I at least try to request a typed copy of the disclosure, conveniently forgetting to include my phone number so the request cannot be completed by them? Either way I would be trying for a charter of rights defence if the new trial date is more than 8 months after the offence. All suggestions appreciated.
Hi folks,
I was doing some "creative" passing maneuvers when I got pulled. Maybe I could argue that I was trying to avoid a dangerously erratic driver beside me. Though I've read that this type of defence is weak.
Anyway, I went for early resolution thinking I could get the charge dismissed at that stage. NOT! So the guy there gave me a copy of the officers handwritten disclosure on the spot. DOH! However, this document is 90% illegible and the quoted colour of my car is wrong. The speed is clearly written though, 130 > 135. So 40+ over.
My questions are, should I just take this copy of the disclosure to trial and ask for another trial date on the grounds that I could not prepare a proper defence? Or should I at least try to request a typed copy of the disclosure, conveniently forgetting to include my phone number so the request cannot be completed by them? Either way I would be trying for a charter of rights defence if the new trial date is more than 8 months after the offence.
you answered your own question there. 1. Asking for another trial date because you were unable to read the officer's hand writing will not fly well. Requesting a new date will likely waive your charter 11b idea. Besides, on the TRIAL DATE, you are expected to go to TRIAL. You should practice due diligence and request further disclosure where the officer will type out the notes and provide them to the court. Last minute weak issues are generally too late at this point as the court is prepared to proceed with a trial. 2. Depending on other circumstances, given the incorrect colour, you may be able to create reasonable doubt during the trial that the car clocked at that rate of speed was in fact not you. Provide further circumstances if you want to discuss this more. 3. Not allowing the court any oppourtunity to contact you, despite making disclosure available regardless, will result in the same as above (possible adjournment with the responsibility placed upon you therefore nullifying your 11b). Lastly, 11b's are generally reserved for trials set 11 months or more after the charge date.
DVP160 wrote:
Maybe I could argue that I was trying to avoid a dangerously erratic driver beside me. Though I've read that this type of defence is weak.
you answered your own question there.
DVP160 wrote:
Anyway, I went for early resolution thinking I could get the charge dismissed at that stage. NOT! So the guy there gave me a copy of the officers handwritten disclosure on the spot. DOH! However, this document is 90% illegible and the quoted colour of my car is wrong. The speed is clearly written though, 130 > 135. So 40+ over.
My questions are, should I just take this copy of the disclosure to trial and ask for another trial date on the grounds that I could not prepare a proper defence? Or should I at least try to request a typed copy of the disclosure, conveniently forgetting to include my phone number so the request cannot be completed by them? Either way I would be trying for a charter of rights defence if the new trial date is more than 8 months after the offence.
All suggestions appreciated.
1. Asking for another trial date because you were unable to read the officer's hand writing will not fly well. Requesting a new date will likely waive your charter 11b idea. Besides, on the TRIAL DATE, you are expected to go to TRIAL. You should practice due diligence and request further disclosure where the officer will type out the notes and provide them to the court. Last minute weak issues are generally too late at this point as the court is prepared to proceed with a trial.
2. Depending on other circumstances, given the incorrect colour, you may be able to create reasonable doubt during the trial that the car clocked at that rate of speed was in fact not you. Provide further circumstances if you want to discuss this more.
3. Not allowing the court any oppourtunity to contact you, despite making disclosure available regardless, will result in the same as above (possible adjournment with the responsibility placed upon you therefore nullifying your 11b). Lastly, 11b's are generally reserved for trials set 11 months or more after the charge date.
No, I am not the chief of Toronto Police.
No, I do not work for Toronto Police...
... it is just a name folks
Thanks for the reply. You seem to know what you're talking about. Actually, I just checked my ownership document, and although my car is dark metallic green, it says "GRY" on the ownership. DOH! The circumstances were as follows: at 11:45pm one night driving home on the DVP I was going with the flow of traffic at around 100kph as is usually the case on that road in light volume. Even the cops cruise at about 105kph according to my clock. Then I came up behind a group of vehicles travelling a lot slower, maybe 85kph. I was in the process of passing some of the cars when I noticed a minivan to my right veer slightly towards me a couple of times. There was another car close behind so I felt I needed to accelerate away from some possible danger. I did so without paying attention to my speed. After I passed the weaving car by some distance and I was slowing down again, I noticed another car following me closely. It turned out that car was one of those barely marked cruisers. While I was still slowing down he put on his lights and pulled me over. The officer was calm and polite. So was I. I didn't say anything to him other than express shock at the speed he said I was travelling. Obviously the stealth cruiser was nestled in amongst the slower moving traffic and I failed to spot him. Otherwise I suppose I would have been more cautious of my speed. Not that I would say anything like that in court!
Thanks for the reply. You seem to know what you're talking about.
Actually, I just checked my ownership document, and although my car is dark metallic green, it says "GRY" on the ownership. DOH!
The circumstances were as follows: at 11:45pm one night driving home on the DVP I was going with the flow of traffic at around 100kph as is usually the case on that road in light volume. Even the cops cruise at about 105kph according to my clock.
Then I came up behind a group of vehicles travelling a lot slower, maybe 85kph. I was in the process of passing some of the cars when I noticed a minivan to my right veer slightly towards me a couple of times. There was another car close behind so I felt I needed to accelerate away from some possible danger. I did so without paying attention to my speed. After I passed the weaving car by some distance and I was slowing down again, I noticed another car following me closely. It turned out that car was one of those barely marked cruisers. While I was still slowing down he put on his lights and pulled me over.
The officer was calm and polite. So was I. I didn't say anything to him other than express shock at the speed he said I was travelling.
Obviously the stealth cruiser was nestled in amongst the slower moving traffic and I failed to spot him. Otherwise I suppose I would have been more cautious of my speed. Not that I would say anything like that in court!
Even if it said "dark metallic green", it wouldn't have made a difference. An officer is not expected to to know every color code made by every car manufacturer. If he had said the car was white and the car was blue, you might have something to go on. I suggest you not try to use this story as a defense. Prosecutor is just going to ask you why you didn't slow down instead.
DVP160 wrote:
Thanks for the reply. You seem to know what you're talking about.
Actually, I just checked my ownership document, and although my car is dark metallic green, it says "GRY" on the ownership. DOH!
Even if it said "dark metallic green", it wouldn't have made a difference. An officer is not expected to to know every color code made by every car manufacturer. If he had said the car was white and the car was blue, you might have something to go on.
DVP160 wrote:
Then I came up behind a group of vehicles travelling a lot slower, maybe 85kph. I was in the process of passing some of the cars when I noticed a minivan to my right veer slightly towards me a couple of times. There was another car close behind so I felt I needed to accelerate away from some possible danger. I did so without paying attention to my speed. After I passed the weaving car by some distance and I was slowing down again, I noticed another car following me closely. It turned out that car was one of those barely marked cruisers. While I was still slowing down he put on his lights and pulled me over.
I suggest you not try to use this story as a defense. Prosecutor is just going to ask you why you didn't slow down instead.
Ok, let's say I do provide a phone number, but they still don't provide me with a legible copy of the disclosure in time for the trial. Is that grounds for a new trial date without nullifying my 11b? Another question... If they do provide me with the typed disclosure and there's no reasonable defence against the charge, how should I proceed with the goal of agreeing to a lesser charge and fine? Plead not guilty and try to talk to the prosecutor and officer during the break, if there is a break? I read about a case like that elsewhere in this forum. Or should I plead guilty and ask for leniency right away?
tdottopcop wrote:
3. Not allowing the court any oppourtunity to contact you, despite making disclosure available regardless, will result in the same as above (possible adjournment with the responsibility placed upon you therefore nullifying your 11b). Lastly, 11b's are generally reserved for trials set 11 months or more after the charge date.
Ok, let's say I do provide a phone number, but they still don't provide me with a legible copy of the disclosure in time for the trial. Is that grounds for a new trial date without nullifying my 11b?
Another question... If they do provide me with the typed disclosure and there's no reasonable defence against the charge, how should I proceed with the goal of agreeing to a lesser charge and fine? Plead not guilty and try to talk to the prosecutor and officer during the break, if there is a break? I read about a case like that elsewhere in this forum. Or should I plead guilty and ask for leniency right away?
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