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Disclosure questions
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:06 am 
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Location: Ontario
Hello people,

Some questions:

1. What should be a reasonable time for the prosecutor to provide disclosure from the first faxed request (2 reminders were sent as well)?
Is 8 months reasonable? If not, is there anything one can do about it?

2. The disclosure contained a copy of the ticket (offence notice), the cop's notes and the accident report.
What is the legal standing of the accident report?
If said accident report was filled 6 months after the fact and is full of discrepancies with the one given by the cop at the scene, can I use that fact to my advantage and how?

3. How can I find the date the certificate of offence was filed?
According to the Provincial Offences Act: "The certificate of offence must be filed as soon as practicable after service of the offence notice or summons (within 7 calendar days)."

Thank you.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:54 am 
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OK. "ACCIDENT"=Representation.

Nuff said.

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http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:48 pm 
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Hello Reflections, thank you for your reply.

Reflections wrote:
OK. "ACCIDENT"=Representation.
Nuff said.


As in "legal representation"?


Last edited by alexo on Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:37 pm 
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read this site.

www.ticketcombat.com/

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:42 pm 
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lawmen wrote:
read this site.
www.ticketcombat.com/

Already did (great resource) and that what prompted these questions.


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Re: Disclosure questions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 3:31 pm 
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alexo wrote:
1. What should be a reasonable time for the prosecutor to provide disclosure from the first faxed request (2 reminders were sent as well)? Is 8 months reasonable? If not, is there anything one can do about it?
First, thanks for the positive feedback on my site. As I don't know the details, I can speculate that you asked for disclosure, they did nothing for eight months and then just before the trial, somebody gave you a couple of photocopies. If they did not give you enough time prior to trial to review disclosure, and as long as you can demonstrate to the court that you were diligent in attempting to obtain disclosure, that should be sufficient for you to request an adjournment (on their time, not yours) to review the material which hopefully can lead to an 11b application;

Quote:
What is the legal standing of the accident report? If said accident report was filled 6 months after the fact and is full of discrepancies with the one given by the cop at the scene, can I use that fact to my advantage and how?
Who filed the accident report? If the cop did and he wasn't there at the accident then use the discrepancies between his notes and his report to attack his credibility.

Beware of witnesses. Make sure you know who they are and what they are going to say. The accident report is heresay. There must be a witness to testify what they saw. The cop probably didn't see the accident so he wasn't a direct witness. But if he is an accident reconstruction expert, you have to be far more aggressive in challenging his ability and his conclusions.

Quote:
3. How can I find the date the certificate of offence was filed?
Ask for it in disclosure, including the filing date. That's the great thing about disclosure. They have to tell you what you want to know. If they don't, they have to justify why it is not relevant to the case.

Good luck and good fight!

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Re: Disclosure questions
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:24 pm 
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alexo wrote:
If said accident report was filled 6 months after the fact and is full of discrepancies with the one given by the cop at the scene, can I use that fact to my advantage and how?.


A few issues here. By HTA police have to submit the Collision Report within 10 days. Our internal policy is 7 days.

In 12yrs, I have never ever seen a Collision Report completely filled out at scene and given to both drivers by myself or a co-worker. This report at the least needs a supervisor signature, and unless they are the investigator, they most likely will not be around for a simple property damage collision.

What I have seen and done at scene is filled out the driver, vehicle and insurance info and given that to both drivers. (This is actually the bottom 2 sheets of a collision report, it only shows those details).

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Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:03 pm 
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alexo wrote:
Hello Reflections, thank you for your reply.

Reflections wrote:
OK. "ACCIDENT"=Representation.
Nuff said.


As in "legal representation"?

Yep, I would.

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http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com


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Re: Disclosure questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:12 pm 
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ticketcombat wrote:
First, thanks for the positive feedback on my site.

You deserve it.

ticketcombat wrote:
As I don't know the details, I can speculate that you asked for disclosure, they did nothing for eight months and then just before the trial, somebody gave you a couple of photocopies. If they did not give you enough time prior to trial to review disclosure, and as long as you can demonstrate to the court that you were diligent in attempting to obtain disclosure, that should be sufficient for you to request an adjournment (on their time, not yours) to review the material which hopefully can lead to an 11b application;

More or less correct. I sent them 3 requests. 8 months after the 1st, they called my house less than 2 months before the trial and spoke to my wife, telling her that "something is ready for me" (her words). As she was late for work, she promptly forgot about it and it took almost another month for something to remind her). I purposely did not put my phone number on the letterhead (only fax number and address) but it did not make a difference.

ticketcombat wrote:
Who filed the accident report? If the cop did and he wasn't there at the accident then use the discrepancies between his notes and his report to attack his credibility.

Same cop. There are 3 versions: the original report, the copy I got with the disclosure and the sketchy notes. All have subtle differences.

ticketcombat wrote:
Beware of witnesses. Make sure you know who they are and what they are going to say. The accident report is heresay. There must be a witness to testify what they saw. The cop probably didn't see the accident so he wasn't a direct witness. But if he is an accident reconstruction expert, you have to be far more aggressive in challenging his ability and his conclusions.

The cop seems to be a regular a traffic cop.
The charge is, I believe, incorrect (see here).
How do I find out what the witnesses will say? Can I compel them to talk to me?

ticketcombat wrote:
Ask for it in disclosure, including the filing date. That's the great thing about disclosure. They have to tell you what you want to know. If they don't, they have to justify why it is not relevant to the case.

Way too late now. Trial date is almost here.

ticketcombat wrote:
Good luck and good fight!

Thank you very much!

Since it will be my first (and hopefully last) any advice is welcome.


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Re: Disclosure questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:17 pm 
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hwybear wrote:
A few issues here. By HTA police have to submit the Collision Report within 10 days. Our internal policy is 7 days.

The collision report I got in the disclosure was dated 6 months after the fact.

My understanding of the filing procedure is incomplete but it seems to me that what needs to be filed in 7 days is the "certificate of offence" which is, according to my understanding, the ticket.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:58 pm 
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Bear, what section of the HTA requires it to be filed within 10 days?

Al, if you are referring to filing the ticket with the court after the charge is laid against someone, the cop must file it as soon as is practicable after service of the offence notice or summons.

Section 4 of the POA.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... _e.htm#BK7

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