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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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If I dont get disclosure
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:01 pm 
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The offense is passing an emergency vehicle stopped on the hwy.

My dad got caught during this blitz, even though he is already going slow in teh right lane, and it is not safe to change lanes on the 400 Norht to Barrie aaround 7pm at night.

Anyways,

We got the court day for beginning of September, on a letter dated June 25th,

I did registered mail asking for disclosure which they signed for on July 17th.

The date is coming close for trial, yet no disclosure....

Questions:

If I dont get anything in the mail for disclosure, what exactly do I say when I get to court (obviously want it thrown out)

If I do get disclosure within the next time frame of 2 weeks (until the court date), could I argue that reasonable time was not provided to prepare my case (trying to get it postponed)?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:19 am 
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Quote:
If I dont get anything in the mail for disclosure, what exactly do I say when I get to court (obviously want it thrown out)


If this is the case, just tell the JP your story. You don't need to get too technical, just that you have asked for and not received disclosure. It's either a stay of proceedings or case dismissed, can't remember.

Quote:
If I do get disclosure within the next time frame of 2 weeks (until the court date), could I argue that reasonable time was not provided to prepare my case (trying to get it postponed)?


If this is the case, ask for a continuance. If you ask at the wrong time the JP will tell you. If you have not asked for a continuance before, it will more then likely be granted. It's not that scary.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:36 am 
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You motion for dismissal BEFORE you make your plea. The JP will ask how you plea to the charge as read. You state that you request dismissal of the charge based on lack of Disclosure . Make sure you bring proof that you submitted the request.

Object strongly to any Crown motion for a continuance. It's not your fault disclosure wasn't provided. You followed proper procedures, he didn't. Insist on dismissal due to the cost and time lost due to the prosecutions failure to comply with your request.

No one should be expected to enter a plea without first seeing the contents of a disclosure package.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:29 pm 
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In Toronto, disclosure can take eight weeks. I don't know what the Barrie office is like, but July 17 to early September is not a lot of time FOR THEM to prepare disclosure.

The amount of time to schedule the trial (June 25 to September) is very short, only three months. They can take up to eight months which means they have more than enough time to reschedule your trial. An adjournment is possible.

If you don't get disclosure you can ask for a stay. If you do get disclosure between now and then, it's not enough time and you ask for an adjournment.

Try negotiating with the prosecutor before court to drop the charge. Say you didn't get disclosure (or didn't get it in time), your dad did slow down but it was not safe to change lanes, which means it's unlikely he'll get convicted, so why not save the court's time and drop the charge.

You can be even more aggressive with him if you didn't get disclosure. You can threaten that you will ask the court to award costs. A good but slightly technical discussion about costs can be found here.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:26 pm 
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Another example of a driver not paying attention while they are driving. Try looking past the front of the hood and might see the flashing lights ahead of you.

Rather than a ticket, maybe every driver that doesn't move over should be put in an office chair and have a vehicle go past them within 3 feet. Add to the experience, just touch on the rumble strips.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:59 pm 
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I experience the same threat every time I pass an oncoming car in the opposite lane. The accumulative speed of 160kmp+ would be the crash speed if that guy were to veer just a few feet in my direction. With this in mind, I have to trust the "other guy" with my LIFE (as do officers on the side of the road). So why would he care, so long as the driver was alert, slowed down, and stayed in his lane.

I had an experience last week that could maybe shed some light on this problem. After 6 straight hours behind the wheel through the middle of the night, I suddenly got very tired just 1/2 hour from home. I thought I could manage the rest of the trip, but found myself wandering a little in my lane. I chose to stop and power-nap for 5 minutes or so and my mind cleared enough for me to finish my drive. But I coudn't help wondering if this might be the real cause of all these drivers plowing in to the back of police cars. I'll bet there's a lot more tired drivers on the road than we'll ever know. I doubt many drivers involved in wrecks admit they fell asleep, or were groggy behind the wheel.

Unfortunately, I know of no roadside machine that can test for mental clarity.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:53 pm 
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Bookm wrote:
I had an experience last week that could maybe shed some light on this problem. After 6 straight hours behind the wheel through the middle of the night, I suddenly got very tired just 1/2 hour from home. I thought I could manage the rest of the trip, but found myself wandering a little in my lane. I chose to stop and power-nap for 5 minutes or so and my mind cleared enough for me to finish my drive. But I coudn't help wondering if this might be the real cause of all these drivers plowing in to the back of police cars. I'll bet there's a lot more tired drivers on the road than we'll ever know. I doubt many drivers involved in wrecks admit they fell asleep, or were groggy behind the wheel.

Unfortunately, I know of no roadside machine that can test for mental clarity.


WOW....almost fell off my chair....that is probably the best comment you have ever posted....and it makes sense :D

Just doesn't have to be tired at night either, but maybe a mental drain on people at work and just going through the motions to get home.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:04 pm 
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Bookm wrote:
I experience the same threat every time I pass an oncoming car in the opposite lane. The accumulative speed of 160kmp+ would be the crash speed if that guy were to veer just a few feet in my direction.

Not as bad as a vehicle vs person (walking up for traffic stops).

Here are some :shock: things I have encountered on the 401 in 8 yrs
- 1 to 2 times a year I have to go over the hood of a car so I do not get smoked
- at least once every 2 weeks, someone hits the "rumble strips" prior to my location
- there are 2 overpasses in my area dedicated as Memorial Bridge for fallen police officers from being hit by vehicles while parked on the shoulder
- 1 to 2 times a year one of our cruisers gets "clipped" while on the shoulder

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:59 pm 
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hwybear, why can't you guys (or the gov't legislate it) so that when you pull a car over, they MUST EXIT the highway? Why must we keep putting officers lives in peril when the simple solution is to stop pulling cars over on the shoulder? In a built up area, highway exits are frequent, so there is no reason why this cannot be done.

I have been pulled over many times, and most times, the officer comes to the drivers side window. This makes no sense to me. Surley it's time for the OPP and other forces to implement standards to have them come to the passenger side. SUVs and trucks notwithstanding.

An even better idea, is to stop pulling people over for doing less than 25km over. Surely driving 125km/hr in a 100km/hr is safer than to pull someone over and put your life at risk.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:51 am 
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synergy wrote:
hwybear, why can't you guys (or the gov't legislate it) so that when you pull a car over, they MUST EXIT the highway? Why must we keep putting officers lives in peril when the simple solution is to stop pulling cars over on the shoulder? In a built up area, highway exits are frequent, so there is no reason why this cannot be done.

That is great thinking, however, the simplest of thing of stopping in a safe location is too hard for some drivers, much less trying to get them to remember to do more. I try very hard to stop vehicles only in straight areas, never over a hill, never around a curve and when possible utilize the extra space of on/off ramps.....but no matter what I do, some drivers still park elsewhere......
1) Perfect wide area to stop, but they wait and then stop by a "beeping" guard rail or under an overpass
2) Stopping on the left side
3) Stopping directly ON the live lane....talk about "pucker factor"

synergy wrote:
I have been pulled over many times, and most times, the officer comes to the drivers side window. This makes no sense to me. Surley it's time for the OPP and other forces to implement standards to have them come to the passenger side. SUVs and trucks notwithstanding.

I have not performed a driver side approach on the hwy in 8 years. OPP academy does teach passenger side approach.
synergy wrote:
An even better idea, is to stop pulling people over for doing less than 25km over. Surely driving 125km/hr in a 100km/hr is safer than to pull someone over and put your life at risk.

:lol: :lol: I might as well stay at home, although it makes for good job security!!
Construction of highways have improved and vehicles have improved and that is it! Driver training has not improved, nor is it tested every 5 years to make sure the driver is competent.
It is also very piss poor time management skills for someone to drive that fast to get to where they want as most times it is to "save time". Yet people still take their washroom, food breaks waiting in lines and costs more in fuel. Better yet they are at the next traffic light when you get there. So now they are wearing out their brakes that much more.

I typically allow ONLY 20km over and here is my reasoning.
- allows the driver to be within 10km of the posted speed limit
- add in another 10km for the speedometer of the subject vehicle not to be accurate
Be at 21over and you are stopped.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:23 am 
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Bookm wrote:
I had an experience last week that could maybe shed some light on this problem. After 6 straight hours behind the wheel through the middle of the night, I suddenly got very tired just 1/2 hour from home. I thought I could manage the rest of the trip, but found myself wandering a little in my lane. I chose to stop and power-nap for 5 minutes or so and my mind cleared enough for me to finish my drive. But I coudn't help wondering if this might be the real cause of all these drivers plowing in to the back of police cars. I'll bet there's a lot more tired drivers on the road than we'll ever know. I doubt many drivers involved in wrecks admit they fell asleep, or were groggy behind the wheel.


Dr. Stanley Coren of UBC and author of Sleep Thieves studied traffic accidents and the implementation of daylight savings time. Across Canada in every province except Manitoba, there was a 7% increase in traffic accidents on the Monday after the switch to daylight savings time. The cause is attributed to people getting one hour less sleep. Later in the week the accident statistics return to normal as people get used to the time difference. When we get one hour more sleep in the Fall, there was a 7% decrease in traffic accidents on the following Monday. There was no change in Manitoba because they don't switch to daylight savings time.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:03 pm 
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damn, this went off topic lol

update: Still no disclosure, court date is next week


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:03 am 
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Yeah, some old-timers :lol: here can remember all the things even remotely related to your case, even if they do not provide anything of interest to you. However, with these facts (provided you did ask for the disclosure AND have the proof for it) here's roughly what you have to say in court.

I hereby respectfully ask for the case to be dismissed, due to the fact that I still have not received disclosure statement for which I have asked, as documented here (your proof), on this date (as on proof).

The crown will try to reschedule. However, 3 things may happen here
1. The cop may not show up. (duh!) - case dismissed.
2. Cop does show up - well, he's gotta do it again! May not happen the 2-nd time. 2-nd time he may provide disclosure, but fail to show up (duh!).
3. Cop doesn't provide disclosure 2-nd time (he's had enough opportunity to do so!) - the case is dismissed on the general principles (if the crown cannot even provide to you its proof, than who can they provide it to?) Also, if you go for the 2-nd time, chances are you had to wait a while. If you had to wait for the 3-rd time, the case will be dismissed due to the reasonable length of time and plain amount of time you had wasted on being in court when you shouldn't have been there in the first palce (innocent till proven guilty!) You have just wasted 2 days out of your life on court for the same result, you deserve a break not to go through it for the 3-rd time. Earnings lost (even if you send a paralegal - his/her wages).

Even if you do get disclosure, make sure you record WHEN you get it - this way you can say to the crown that you did not have enough time to prepare, and you ask to have the case dismissed anyway, for the reasons in #2 and #3.

I also assume that you were stopped by a policeman. If it was a policewoman, adjust the adjectives :P

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:20 pm 
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update::

So i talked ot the prosector about disclosure and on my file, it stated that disclosure had been given....I had not received anything, so when they actually went and found my disclosure, they said we did not recieve it because I did not put a phone number on it (according to all the research i did, a phone number was not suppose to be left)

he said it would have to be an adjournment because they dont dismiss the case due to this reason...

so then the court is in session, and the cop singled me out and took me outside and told me that he remember my dad and how he was nice to him etc. and that if i goto trial, most likely I wont win....and that i could take a lower plea with no points....so i thought about it, and i said yes - it sounded like the right option.

so i got an amended charge with pleaing guilty.....85+costs = 110 with no points....

I think that is decent...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:54 am 
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Fighting a ticket is not always about winning. Sometimes it's about minimizing the damage of the ticket (fine + insurance). It's a tough decision to make - to take the lower charge or fight on.

You walked away with no demerit points. Congratulations.

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