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Re: Stunt driving ?? - 135 in 80 zone
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:12 pm 
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Location: brampton
interesting article from the orangeville citizen [2014] .. mentioning the "problems" encountered on the north end of hwy 410, mostly by people with no intention of excessive speeding. The quite obvious solution is simply sufficient signage ... If the real concern was safety and appropriate speed limits, I'm sure that would already be done.

Also speaks to other related stuff ...

http://citizen.on.ca/?p=2328


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Re: Stunt driving ?? - 135 in 80 zone
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 12:47 pm 
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Location: brampton
Update:

Thx for responses ...

Looking at google maps, the location of the speeding offense was just past/at the ValleyWood exit on hwy 410 north. Very shortly after that, 1km maybe, you're on hwy 10.

On that day, for some reason, I thought I was before the first Valleywood exit sign where the speed limit is higher. I was waiting to see the Valleywood exit sign.

Often travel that way, typically I exit at Valleywood, or sometimes continue onto hwy 10. Usually if passing Valleywood, my driving speed much slower, because I know hwy 10 is around the turn. And I'm usually move into the slower inside line when I see the first Valleywood exit sign. I was pretty sure the speed limit was 100 all the way up 410, but because I typically exit at ValleyWood and know hwy 10 is just around the turn from there, my vehicle speed was likely within acceptable range to avoid tickets normally anyway.

I still think the speed limit changes should be more visible, as someone unfamiliar with the area would not be aware hwy 10 is just around the turn, with a different speed limit. But that excuse wouldn't apply to me ...mostly I just missed the exit I was expecting, thought I was in a different section of 410.

Simply thought I was in a different section of 410 north. Probably thinking about something, I guess.

Not sure what defense, there could be for a stunt driving charge under that scenario. I think that law is too harsh, too costly, not applied well; as it currently is. From what I read in the last couple of days, it's mostly affecting the wrong target group for the intent of the law.

The speed limit signage on 410 north seems insufficient, based on myself never noticing it in the last three years of using the road. On 410, other vehicle speeds on the 100kph section, varies from 80 -140+(sometimes), over multiple lanes, with quite a few on/off ramps ... drivers attention is focused on traffic, not small signage off to the far right ... the signs should be over head to be noticed. There are also peripheral vision issues ... if the signage is across 2 or more lanes ... that's not always true, but more true at higher speeds (100) and increased traffic volume.

Anyways, this is not the forum for that stuff ... very little individuals can do except bend over in this case.

From what I understand parts of the law have been deemed unconstitutional or similar ... but is under appeal, so it still continues. Given the harshness of the law, continuing under an appeals periods is not what the government should be doing. I also think removing reasonable discretion from police officers, at the limit set, is questionable as well. YET, police are given other discretion, in terms of tires spinning, turning too fast etc. .. oh come on.

Given the way the law is stated, and being applied in practice, it is far too easy to unintentionally get snagged by this. Pretty soon, if not already, we are going to start seeing individuals being snagged multiple times.


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Re: Stunt driving ?? - 135 in 80 zone
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:28 am 
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I had a look at Google maps. The sign saying the speed drops to 80 is clearly visible. If you've driven the road quite a lot then you're just not paying attention. Having said that the trouble with roadside signs on multi lane roads is that you could have a truck in the curb lane which you are overtaking slowly and it could shield the sign entirely.

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Re: Stunt driving ?? - 135 in 80 zone
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:17 am 
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Even if the zone drops from 100 to 80, you were caught doing 135. There's no if, ands or buts. Speeding is speeding. Going with the flow of traffic I understand, but I highly doubt traffic was flowing at 130-140. Majority of the time when I'm on the 410, everyones doing 80-110, with the occasional Honda/Acura swerving lanes.

Just go to your summons date and see if they offer you 49 over. If they don't, request a trial, get disclosure and get a Lawyer.


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Re: Stunt driving ?? - 135 in 80 zone
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:22 pm 
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Location: brampton
argyll wrote:
I had a look at Google maps. The sign saying the speed drops to 80 is clearly visible. If you've driven the road quite a lot then you're just not paying attention..


Google maps looks to be an older video capture, those are not updated overly frequently. It shows one sign. The sign, the tow truck driver pointed out had multiple signs around it. Could be the other signs are distracting from or partially obscuring the sign. I will have to look again later, to really see what is actually there.

I travel that route frequently over the last 2-3 years, let's say an average of 3-5 times a week. I think, the higher probability, would be the signs are "currently" not well placed or are less visible then they should be. Or maybe, because there isn't really any obvious reason why speed limit should change in that area, from a drivers perspective, I'm not looking for it.

I would suspect infrequent users, rarely see it. Maybe it should be overhead sign.

argyll wrote:
Having said that the trouble with roadside signs on multi lane roads is that you could have a truck in the curb lane which you are overtaking slowly and it could shield the sign entirely.


There are quite a few concerns with signage on roads to sufficiently be in a drivers "field of attention". There is quite a lot, people driving cars simply don't see or process. That can be a challenging issue to get right in some cases. Adding multi lanes to mix, makes it more challenging.

------------------------------------------
I did notice that the officer did not sign the summons for stunt driving - speeding ... ... ... although he signed the others summons for not having vehicle/license/insurance info with me.

Does that mean anything, or have importance??

Some internet sites, seem to claim that it does ... but I find that a little hard to believe.


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Re: Stunt driving ?? - 135 in 80 zone
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:53 pm 
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Don't take this the wrong way, but 95% of this discussion is going to be useless to you.

It won't matter what your opinions on stunt driving are. It doesn't matter whether you think:

- the punishment is unfair or unreasonable
- the sign should be bigger or placed over your head
- whether other people are also speeding and also confused
- How apparently people with families, a struggling student, and single mothers are not stunt driving.
- if you think there's no reason for the speed decrease

It's all irrelevant. Your opinions (which in my opinion are flawed anyways), are just opinions.

Do yourself a favor and find someone to represent you. You are charged with stunt driving along with no insurance. I suggest you triple check your paperwork to make sure you can prove you were indeed insured. Best case scenario is they offer speeding 49km. If that's the case, you should probably take it and run.

Good luck.


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Re: Stunt driving ?? - 135 in 80 zone
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:28 pm 
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Location: brampton
thx for all responses ..

see what happens on summons/court date.

I'm not very impressed with officers stalking out speed limit change areas and issuing stunt driving tickets ... which seems to be a common occurrence ... certainly not the way to gain public support.


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Re: Stunt driving ?? - 135 in 80 zone
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:52 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:30 am
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Police officers don't create the speed limits, nor do they write the laws. Have you written to your MLA ?

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Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


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Re: Stunt driving ?? - 135 in 80 zone
PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 11:47 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:33 pm
Posts: 126
I'm just going to add two cents here for what it's worth...

As much as I myself do not like the new law (well, not so new anymore) of 50 km/h over the posted speed limit equals stunt driving, you should keep an open mind, officers are simply doing their job, they are doing what they are told to do and that is to enforce the law.

I was told by a coworker who lives in Montreal, QC laws set the a similar law to our stunt driving law, except in QC threshold is 40 Km/h over posted speed limit, so be very careful driving in QC.

You certainly are not happy about this situation, I can understand how you feel, but don't blame the officer for doing his job, I doubt he was nasty during the stop ( unless you did or say something to provoke him) most police officers are not out to get you.

Personally, I would have an issue if they saw something and did not do anything about it, and to be honest, I have come across couple of such scenarios when some one has ran a red light and the officer at the intersection has turned a blind eye. To me that is simply encouraging that bad behavior and it can get worst from there.

Good luck with you case, take the advice given by bend and talk to a few legal representatives before hiring one.
Be careful of slimy smooth talking paralegals that promise the moon and wonder if they can indeed deliver.


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Re: Stunt driving ?? - 135 in 80 zone
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:01 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:24 pm
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Location: brampton
I did receive temporary license in the mail today. It also states a non-temporary one will follow shortly. Though I have not paid any re-instatements fees yet. And the mailing does not include the amount required.

It's good that they do that ... saves some frustration, of having to go to an MTO location. I probably would have had this before the 7 day suspension was lifted, except for the 2 holidays around Easter affecting mail delivery.

The back of temporary license, mentions paying re-instatement fees, but no amount listed.

I will call them to confirm for sure .. but from my reading, there is a requirement to pay re-instatement fees and if not paid by the end of the valid date for the temporary license, your license will be invalid again, without further notice.

Mentioning this here, as I seen another post by someone, who received the the temp license, followed by permanent license without paying re-instatement fees. Their post indicated they called to confirm no re-instatement fee required, which may have been true in their case, but it isn't clear in the temporary license they send, mostly because no bill or amount is included.

Also because of temp license being issued, if there are re-installment fees to be paid, you have some time leeway of a month or so, to pay before the temp license expires. That may be helpful to limit the immediate expenses ALL happening at the same time. $180 seems to be the re-instatement fee now, which seems excessive, but being able to delay that costs a little, may be helpful to some people.

Just sharing information here ... maybe someone else will find it useful. I will update after I call then in a few days.


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Re: Stunt driving ?? - 135 in 80 zone
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:16 pm 
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Location: brampton
argyll wrote:
Police officers don't create the speed limits, nor do they write the laws. Have you written to your MLA ?


Yep, MLA and a few others, Minister of Transportation ....

I doubt one person, writing or voicing opinions would have much effect. Hopefully others do as well, if they feel it's warranted.


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Re: Stunt driving ?? - 135 in 80 zone
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:30 am
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The U.K. Has a good system where if someone complains about a speed limit - normally someone complaining it's too high - they monitor the speed for a period of time and then set the speed limit around the 85th percentile. Often it goes up.

At least that's how they used to do it - now they have just introduced a ton of 20 mph zones which take all your energy not to speed in !

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Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


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Re: Stunt driving ?? - 135 in 80 zone
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 12:14 pm 
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Location: brampton
gbs wrote:
I did receive temporary license in the mail today. It also states a non-temporary one will follow shortly. Though I have not paid any re-instatements fees yet. And the mailing does not include the amount required.

It's good that they do that ... saves some frustration, of having to go to an MTO location. I probably would have had this before the 7 day suspension was lifted, except for the 2 holidays around Easter affecting mail delivery.

The back of temporary license, mentions paying re-instatement fees, but no amount listed.

I will call them to confirm for sure .. but from my reading, there is a requirement to pay re-instatement fees and if not paid by the end of the valid date for the temporary license, your license will be invalid again, without further notice.

Mentioning this here, as I seen another post by someone, who received the the temp license, followed by permanent license without paying re-instatement fees. Their post indicated they called to confirm no re-instatement fee required, which may have been true in their case, but it isn't clear in the temporary license they send, mostly because no bill or amount is included.

Also because of temp license being issued, if there are re-installment fees to be paid, you have some time leeway of a month or so, to pay before the temp license expires. That may be helpful to limit the immediate expenses ALL happening at the same time. $180 seems to be the re-instatement fee now, which seems excessive, but being able to delay that costs a little, may be helpful to some people.

Just sharing information here ... maybe someone else will find it useful. I will update after I call then in a few days.



UPDATE to reinstatement fees ...


I called them twice since the license was suspended .... today and 2-3 weeks ago .. each time was informed .. there was no reinstatement fee required

They stated there is usually a red 180.00 amount somewhere on the temp license or on their system, if the fee is required.

I will check again in 2 weeks just to be sure ...

I have no idea why the reinstatement fee is not required or what, if anything, that means. [in my case] The person I spoke to at MTO (phone) couldn't answer that question either, they only report what they see on the system.


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stunt driving-135 in 80- continued ...
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 1:31 pm 
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Location: brampton
stunt driving-135 in 80- continued ... --- just to follow up to continue / complete the story ... open to info of course, and thi may help others.

Attended summons date.

Disclosure was minimal ... key point was Caught with Lidar, from 245 meters away, lane 1, at 135km. . Disclosure stated unit tested before and after. -- NOT sure if lane 1 in the inside / outside lane on two lane divided highway.

This is an area of 410 north, that reduces from 100-90-80 over a short distance, while still on the 4 lane median divided hwy. [they get LOTS of people there .. the speed limit change catches a lot of people of guard, and the 80 occurs less than 1 kilometer from end of 410]

Because I did not have license insurance permit etc in the car at the time there were five charges.
1. stunt driving (speeding) 135 in 80 -- (sounds worst then what it is as it is on a road area designed for 100+ kph)
2. fail to surrender license
3. fail to surrender permit
4. fail to surrender insurance card (show card)
5. operate vehicle without insurance ... ( car is/was insured, this will go away with letter from insurer)

Prosecutor offered the following deal.
1. Speeding 40 over - ( a 280 fine I was told) --- [I guess that will read 120 in 80]
2. fail to surrender insurance card ... (50 dollar fine)
Note: Prosecutor did not hear my side of the story, nor was he willing to hear it. Stated his position would not change, regardless. The offer was made, completely at his discretion, based on the information he already had.

Have to go back June 20 to show insurance letter, and either plea guilty to plea offer or ask for trial. [Prosecutor would not accept copy of policy and print out/jpg of bank statements showing payments being made -- stated a some people fake that stuff, so it is no longer acceptable]

Opinions??

Does the fail to surrender insurance card have any effect on insurance ??


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Re: stunt driving-135 in 80- continued ...
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 2:45 pm 
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Yes it does. Any minor tickets count. Basically he's decided that he's not willing to go from 5 to 1 ticket so he's picked one of the little ones. You either fight them all or live with the offer.

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