Illegible disclosure

mow319
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Re: Illegible disclosure

Unread post by mow319 on

I believe there's no demerit points for 10-15 over, right? What about insurance premium? I think it would go up crazy. This is my first ticket and I am a new driver aged over 25.


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Unread post by Radar Identified on

Correct, no demerit points for 10-15 over. If this is your first ticket, if it is for 15 or less over, there's a reasonable possibility that your insurance company will forgive it. That largely depends on your insurance provider. However, I really haven't seen too many insurance companies plow premiums through the roof for one minor speeding ticket. (Well... except for one...) Gather all of the evidence you need and make a decision from there, as to whether you want to fight it full-out, or go for a plea bargain.

FYI... throughout my driving experience, I've usually had one minor speeding ticket on my driver abstract (3 year history). Only once did my rates go up, but that was due to having two of them in a three-year period, one for 15-over, the other for 20-over. Even then, it was only $150 for a 12-month period.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


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Unread post by mow319 on

Court date is June 8. I still haven't received the additional disclosure. I'm getting a bit worried and nervous, not knowing for sure what to say or do next Wed. The best senario would be the officer doesn't show up, or somehow get the ticket dropped.


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Unread post by mow319 on

I just read an article on the trafficombat.com website that said "the charging document must clearly identify what you did wrong. It should indicate:
•the date, time and place of the offence;
•What act you violated;
•Who has laid the charge.
In order for you to prepare an adequate defence you need to know what wrong you allegedly committed. If they haven't provided it, the trial should not continue."

Does it mean that the place of the offence should be the full address of the location where the offence took place? On my offence ticket, it only said "WB Lakeshore Bl W". Is it precise enough?

My court date is June 8 and I still have not received the additional disclosure. I requested it be typed. The first disclosure I received is only the photocopy of the cop's notes, which are not legible. They did not give me the copy of the manual for the speed-measuring device I requested the first time.

Because I do not have complete disclosure to properly prepare myself, can I move for a dismissal due to lack of disclosure? Is this how I do it?
-Go in next Wednesday, if the prosector offers a lower charge/fine, I'll tell him I want to speak to the JP and reject his/her offer.
-Then when I am called, I'll tell the JP because I do not have complete disclosure to properly defend myself, I'd move for a dismissal due to lack of disclosure.

Any help is appreciated!!


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Unread post by Stanton on

mow319 wrote: On my offence ticket, it only said "WB Lakeshore Bl W". Is it precise enough?
It should also include the name of city or township, but the road name is sufficient for a speeding offence. A cross street would only be required for intersection related offences such as stop signs, red lights, etc.

As for your second question, you would be seeking a stay in your trial under section 7. I'd suggest doing some serious research and know your case law if you're going that route. Expect serious resistance, especially if you're just making an oral motion at trial. Do a forum search for some guides and other posts on the process.


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Unread post by mow319 on

Thanks, Stanton. I think I'll ask the JP to postpone it to later till I receive full disclosure. I asked for the manual which they did not provide. Do you think I should also for the officer's training record?

There is one posting in this site about a similar offence wrote: "No training record and no manual disclosure to you is ground for a stay application based on insufficient disclousre (s.7 charter violation).


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Unread post by mow319 on

I went to court today for a charge of 80 in a 60 zone on Lakeshore Blvd. I went up to the man outside the court room. He looked at his list and said, "You are charged with going 80 in a 60 zone. Now I can change it to 16 over with 3 demerit points, but you'd pay less fines." I was shocked because I expected he would at least lower the charge to 10 over and no points. I denied it and went in the court room. Another woman came to me and asked what her assistant had offered me. I told her the offer and I said I did not receive typed disclosure. She said, "You were speeding, and the ticket is all you need to have. I can ask the offer to explain his notes to you now. Follow me." I went out with her and did not get a chance to witness how other defendants do. Anyway, I waited 10 minutes, the officer came. I told him I wanted his typed notes. He said he gave out over a thousand tickets a year, he simply doesn't have time to type his notes. He went over his notes and suggested that the prosecutor was able to lower the charge and fines. Long story short, when I entered the court room again, there was only one defendant left. Her ticket was withdrawn because the officer wasn't there. My turn. I told the JP that I requested a typed disclosure but did not get it. He said, "you are not going to get typed notes." The prosecutor said she could ask the officer to explain his notes to me now. I said he already did but I had not taken any notes. The JP told the officer to go over his notes with me again, as if it was a typed disclosure. I took notes this time. Later we went back in the room and the JP asked if I was satisfied with the disclosure. I said yes, but I need time to prepare. So the next court date is set for Dec 20.

Can I file for an 11b because the offence took place in August 2010? It will be 16 months since it happened. If I am to file an 11b, do I wait till I receive the Notice of Trial? I have this feeling that the notice would be sent to the wrong address, because the address on the offence ticket is wrong. Last time I asked for the manual, but I did not mention it in court today. Can I still request disclosure for the manual?

Any help is appreciated.


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Unread post by mow319 on

Hi everyone,
I was at trial yesterday for going 80 km in a 60 km zone. I requested twice for disclosure of the officer's notes and the manual of the speed-measuring device before trial, but only got officer's illegible notes. When I was called up, I told the JP that I wanted an ajournment because I did not receive typed disclosure. JP said, "You would not receive typed notes." The prosecutor said she could ask the officer to go over the notes with me right then. The JP told the officer to read the notes to me as if it were a typed written disclosure. I took notes when the officer decifered his notes. When we got back in the court room, the JP asked if I was satisfied with the disclosure. I said yes but I need time to prepare. The JP adjourned the trial to Dec 20.

My questions are:
1. The offence took place in August 2010, 16 months from the trial date. Can I file an 11b? I requested an adjournment because I did not receive proper disclosure. Will this delay be considered as caused by the accused?
2. The JP asked if I was satisfied with the disclosure, I said yes but I only meant the officer's notes. Can I put in additional disclosure request for the manual and other evidence?
3. The officer put 2 other officers' names in his notes. He said they were there with him then. Do these 2 officers also have to be at trial?

Any help is appreciated.


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Unread post by Radar Identified on

Put together the request for the manual and follow up with an 11B.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


mow319
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Unread post by mow319 on

2nd court date is Dec 20, 2011. I am undecisive if I should file an 11b motion to stay the case. I did not get a typed disclosure but the officer was made to go over the notes with me by the JP on the first court date. When the JP asked if I was satisfied with the notes, I said yes and I need time to review the notes. JP adjourned to Dec 20 which will be 16 months from the offence date. I am not sure if the extra 6 months was counted as the crown's fault or mine. Can someone please help?


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Unread post by mow319 on

And should I order the transcript?


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Unread post by mow319 on

Radar Identified wrote:Put together the request for the manual and follow up with an 11B.
Hi, can someone please review my sworn statement and advise if I have missed anything or included too much information? Thank you very much.
Attachments
11B.jpg
11B.jpg (197.14 KiB) Viewed 906 times


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Unread post by mow319 on

Today is my second court date and I was ready to argue my 11b. I waited till the end and when they finally called me, it was 11:59. The prosecutor told me that the case would be adjourned to May 2012 becasue they had run out of time. Do I need to file another 11b for this further delay? The total wait time will be 21 months from the offence date.






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