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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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131 in a posted 90 and failure to provide Insurance. Reduced
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:27 pm
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Hi, 1st offence since 1999.

I have had an impeccable driving record since I got a speeding ticket when I was 19. Learnt my lesson and drive like a gramps. However mistakes do happen. I also drive commercial vehicle for a living.

I was traveling on HWY 11N on Monday Sept. 18th. I had my cruise on as I usually do for hwy driving long distance. I was returning from Rouyn Noranda late at night. Of course it's the first time I've ever driven this road I would pass the transports whenever a passing lane would present itself.. I came up onto a transport and a passing lane came up. So I accelerated to get in front as quickly as I could not knowing how long this passing lane would be and to allow the big rig to have his distance. As soon as I pulled out to pass the rig in the left passing lane the car in oncoming threw his lights on and proceeded to turn around. At this point I knew I was speeding obviously because I gave it gas to get past the transport, but had no idea how fast I was going because I had just began to accelerate and got into the passing lane to pass him. I pulled over. He said I was doing 131 in a 90. Why so fast. I explained I was just passing the transport and I was not speeding at all prior to that. He asked for license and registration. I gave him everything. At this point he said my insurance was expired. Oh I said, hang on I have the new slips In here somewhere. (Sometimes i dont put the insurance in my insurance card for months but I just stick the envelope that comes in the mail in the glove box). As i was searching through my large stack of papers he simply said

"Tell you what, you pay the failure to provide Insurance card for $65 And I'll reduce the ticket to the lowest I can which is $50."

I asked him if I had 72 hours to show the insurance would that ticket be gone?

He then said do you want to pay the full thing instead?

I replied no, I was just curious and asking a question.

While he was gone I decided it was bugging me that I couldn't find the new slips. I finally found them but was too scared if I showed them he would Jack my fine back up because he was doing me a "favour" so I just took the two tickets he gave me.

Now.. I was nervous as I don't get pulled over. I have a clean record as I'm a driver for a living to (DZ). I know passing is still a maximum of 90 in 90. I know this. It was really just bad timing as I usually speed up, adjust speed to maybe 110? Pass, THEN reduce etc..

I have been reading that I should fight this. But.. I have also been given a break.. I don't care about the dollar value, I care that once my contract is finished, I will have a record to any new employers I seek and it will hurt my ability to find a new job. The other problem is that I would have to go to court 300km away from home. I am So stuck

I don't know what to do or what I should do. I only have 1 more week to pay... but if I pay I'm guilty and it shows up on my next abstract for work. I have spent 16 years purposely driving like a gramps, signaling, stopping at stops signs, following every single rule so I get no tickets and keep a clean record for work. I am So embarrassed that no one even knows I got a fine not even my wife. I'm known as the guy who follows all rules and have been offered teaching jobs.

I apologize about the very long post..

Please.. advice would be great.. I'm scarred if I fight the tickets, I will get nailed for failure to provide and the ticket will go back up to 41 over with 4 demerits.

I just can't believe I accelerated THAT much to pass that truck. It surprised me.. but radar is radar right? When I looked down after I would have guessed about 118-122 !!as I immediately let go of the gas.


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Re: 131 in a posted 90 and failure to provide Insurance. Red
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 11:37 am
Posts: 26
So he did end up give you the speeding ticket? Pretty sure 41 over is not a $50 fine.

In anycase, request for a trial (plead not guilty) and ask for disclosure.


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Re: 131 in a posted 90 and failure to provide Insurance. Red
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:31 pm 
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Posts: 203
It sounds like the officer reduced the speeding to about 15 over (at which speed there are no demerit points). Double check the ticket to see what the reduced speed is.

Request a trial so you can see the officer's notes. If his notes are thorough, you won't win. In fact, as you're probably aware, the speeding charge will be amended to 131 and you'll face a conviction on both counts. You have right up to the beginning of the trial to plead guilty and pay the fines as stipulated on the tickets.


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Re: 131 in a posted 90 and failure to provide Insurance. Red
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:47 pm 
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I apologize. I forgot to put the speeding ticket in the OP. Yes, he reduced it to 104 in a 90 zone which is no demerit points.

Like I said I just want to know if there is anything I can do to have the ticket quashed. Lime I said, don't care about the money aspect it's the record on my Abstract that I need to have clean for work.

Or if I fight this am I looking at just ending up having both these tickets amended to the original infractions and mami g things worse?


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Re: 131 in a posted 90 and failure to provide Insurance. Red
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:46 pm
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If you plead not guilty your speeding ticket will be "amended up" as per the Winlow decision (Ontario Court of Appeal decision). So, you'll be facing the original speed of 131 in a 90 zone. In other words, 41 over (which is 4 points). Your insurance slip charge will stay the same.

The officer gave you a fantastic deal. There is not much chance of you doing better. The only way to do better would be if the officer doesn't show up (which is extremely rare now and would require you to attend court that day--costly!) or if the Crown really screws up (e.g. not give you disclosure, officer notes lacking details, etc). Bottom line: you can plead not guilty now, request your disclosure and if everything is regular, then just pay your tickets. You're not going to do any better----its guaranteed that it won't be reduced any further----on the contrary, they'll be seeking the much higher rate on the speed charge.

So, do your cost-benefit analysis of whether its worth your time/effort to ask for disclosure (it almost always is), and THEN just pay your tickets (unless there is some really glaring errors on the case).


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Re: 131 in a posted 90 and failure to provide Insurance. Red
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:54 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:27 pm
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highwaystar wrote:
If you plead not guilty your speeding ticket will be "amended up" as per the Winlow decision (Ontario Court of Appeal decision). So, you'll be facing the original speed of 131 in a 90 zone. In other words, 41 over (which is 4 points). Your insurance slip charge will stay the same.

The officer gave you a fantastic deal. There is not much chance of you doing better. The only way to do better would be if the officer doesn't show up (which is extremely rare now and would require you to attend court that day--costly!) or if the Crown really screws up (e.g. not give you disclosure, officer notes lacking details, etc). Bottom line: you can plead not guilty now, request your disclosure and if everything is regular, then just pay your tickets. You're not going to do any better----its guaranteed that it won't be reduced any further----on the contrary, they'll be seeking the much higher rate on the speed charge.

So, do your cost-benefit analysis of whether its worth your time/effort to ask for disclosure (it almost always is), and THEN just pay your tickets (unless there is some really glaring errors on the case).



So basically If I plead not guilty and ask to fight it to get the disclosure my ticket automatically gets amended back up to 41 over as well as still having the insurance ticket? On other words I need to pay the higher dine to see his disclosure to see if there's anything there?


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Re: 131 in a posted 90 and failure to provide Insurance. Red
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:04 pm 
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Thanks for all the help. I'm just going to plead guilty and pay both to tickets


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Re: 131 in a posted 90 and failure to provide Insurance. Red
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:19 am 
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The speeding ticket will only be amended up at the trial; not when you choose not guilty on the back of your ticket. So, other than time and effort, there's no consequence for choosing the not guilty option on your ticket, and getting your disclosure before deciding whether to pay it or continue fighting it.


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Re: 131 in a posted 90 and failure to provide Insurance. Red
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:42 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:27 pm
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highwaystar wrote:
The speeding ticket will only be amended up at the trial; not when you choose not guilty on the back of your ticket. So, other than time and effort, there's no consequence for choosing the not guilty option on your ticket, and getting your disclosure before deciding whether to pay it or continue fighting it.



Yeah that's what I was told. I have like 8 police officers in the family and even an retired JP. I finally broke down and asked one of them last night for some advice. (As said in OP, this is very emebarrassing for me) He looked over the ticket and listened to my story. Based on our conversation, the officer who wrote me the ticket is extremely highly likely to have pristine notes. There is a very small chance there is a small descrepency and also I don't have much of a defense considering I was given a major break. Also noted that my work is ok with the minor speeding infraction but I would have gotten fired if the officer gave me that original ticket.

Instead, I think I will count my blessings, he saved my job, I'll learn from this mistake, pay for the crime and save the hassle of getting a disclosure which is mostly likely spotless, but I need to travel 300km to court or pay $400 for a legal team to retrieve it to have a look.

Again, thank you all for your advice as you were my only source of information since I got the ticket and was too embarrassed to ask family or friends.


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Re: 131 in a posted 90 and failure to provide Insurance. Red
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:40 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:30 am
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You might - might - be able to get the insurance dropped if you plead to the reduced speeding. That's 1 ticket in instead of 2.

_________________
Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


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Re: 131 in a posted 90 and failure to provide Insurance. Red
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:17 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:27 pm
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If you plead not guilty and send your tickets to the court. How do you get the disclosure?


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Re: 131 in a posted 90 and failure to provide Insurance. Red
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:43 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:21 am
Posts: 377
Stach wrote:
If you plead not guilty and send your tickets to the court. How do you get the disclosure?


Here is a link to a thread that goes through how to get disclosure: courts-and-procedure/sample-disclosure-request-form-t2959.html

You can go to the website of the jurisdiction that issued the ticket to find out exactly where to send your disclosure request.


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