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Reduced Speeding Ticket & Failure to Show Proof of Insurance
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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 12:52 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 8:19 am
Posts: 3
Hello Everyone,

I have until May 16th to choose an option for two tickets, and would appreciate any help on the matter:

The Situation
Pulled over on a county road on my way to work around 7:30am, police officer said I was doing 102 km/h in a 50 km/h zone. I was not told what device was used to determine this, nor is that written on my ticket (not implying the officer messed up, just stating the facts in case that is important).
I was in my parents car and the proof of insurance was not in the car (dad took it out to look at the manual, in the blue packet with P.O.I, and forgot to put it back).

The Issued Tickets
The officer was proof that angels walk among us and let me off with the following tickets:
- Speeding- 65km/h in a 50 km/h- $52.50 total payable
- Fail to surrender Insurance Card- $65.00 total payable
I believe neither of these come with points which, considering what he could've charged me with, I consider to be an early birthday present...

Possible Resolutions
Since the initial ticket expense is relatively little to someone working full time, I am concerned with the effects this will have on insurance.
I am switching over to my own insurance on May 15th (when I turn 25), and will take action on that day so the offence(s) will not affect my premium until
the following year.

I believe my best course of action is Option 2: Early Resolution- Meet with prosecutor, from what I have read I think I need to file both tickets the same?

My hope is that I can bring proof of insurance, ownership into the prosecturion to have at least the fail to produce charge dropped? I don't really want to fight the speeding charge in case they bring
the charge up to the original speed...


Obviously in my due diligence I have contacted "Ticket Defenders" who have said they will fight both charges for $300+tax. But I
don't see how likely it is they will defeat both, and (using quick online quotes to compare) my insurance would only go up $530 over two years
pleading to both, and $312 over two years if I get the fail to produce taken off. I have pretty much ruled out this option because best case scenario,
they get both charges dropped and save me $191 in insurance and $117.50 in ticket costs... Worst case scenario they drop 1 and plea to the other and I'm
still paying more than just pleading to both would cost me...


I am okay with taking the speeding charge on the chin for 2 reasons:
1- I don't have any reason to believe it can be quashed,
2- I was doing double the speed limit; 15km/h over and no points is a small price to pay...

I just want to make sure that choosing early resolution and trying to get the fail to produce charge dropped by pleading guilty to the speeding
charge is my best course of action...


Thank you for all of your help


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Re: Reduced Speeding Ticket & Failure to Show Proof of Insur
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 1:05 pm 
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I'm not sure how ticket busters (or whatever they are called) will fight the fail to produce. You were asked for it and didn't have it - not much to defend there. I think your plan is sound - it is what I would do. You may not get a break on either ticket because you already got such a break at the roadside but turn up early, neatly dressed and be polite and respectful to the crown and you might just.

I'd also be concerned about having the ticket put back up as that would take you into major territory for the insurance company.

_________________
Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


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Re: Reduced Speeding Ticket & Failure to Show Proof of Insur
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 1:13 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:26 pm
Posts: 2881
Location: Toronto
The cop reduced your speed from stunt driving level (52 over the limit) to 15 over?!?!?!!!!!

You may want to re-consider whether you want to fight/plead here. First of all, should you go to court, the Prosecutor can (and almost certainly will) amend the speed back up to the original 52 over the limit. The R. v. Winlow ruling allows for this, and it is now done routinely. They will know that you were 52 over because they will get a disclosure briefing from the officer. If you think insurance will be expensive with one 15-over ticket, wait until they find out you were 52 over.

Further, in this case, it is very unlikely you will get a deal even via early resolution. The early resolution will likely just be the Prosecutor telling you "no deal," that is, if the Prosecutor is nice. Most of them just do their jobs, and some are vindictive. There's also a good chance that when the Prosecutor finds out the actual speed was 52, the Prosecutor will withdraw the speeding charge and then have you served with a summons for stunt driving. That has happened before on many occasions.

Normally, I'm all for trying to get reductions, but given the very serious consequences that could arise out of fighting it, and the virtually non-existent chance of getting anything out if it, my recommendation would be to just pay both of them.

_________________
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


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Re: Reduced Speeding Ticket & Failure to Show Proof of Insur
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 1:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 8:19 am
Posts: 3
Thank you for both of your replies.

Radar your reply is especially what I was concerned about.
"Lucky" is putting my situation incredibly lightly, and I feel the more people that get
involved in my situation, the sooner that luck will run out...

Argyll, I have read that going to trial and showing the judge proof of ownership and insurance is enough to get the charge dropped... That said, I bet those charges aren't paired with speeding charges like this...

From what I have read from internet reviews, a strategy ticket defenders often use is waiting until the officer is unavailable for court, having the date scheduled, needing to reschedule because the officer is unavailable, and then continually repeating this process until the conviction window (or something like that) has passed and the charges dropped... Again, most reasonable best case (insurance dropped), I am still losing money, so I won't be using them.

The idea that early resolution is a "it can't hurt" kind of situation, came from ticket defenders telling me directly they would meet with a prosecutor to work out a deal, and that the prosecutor would have to give the opportunity to accept the original charge before the charges can be increased.

Radar, it sounds like from what you are saying this is not the case?

If me taking any action on this at all (even early resolution resulting in a prosecutor looking at the officer's notes) results in a withdrawal of the 15 over and issue of a 52 over than I have no issue taking the charges on the chin and will continue to thank my lucky stars that officer also has a birthday in May.

Thanks again for your replies,
if what Radar said would in fact have turned out to be the case,
you guys just saved me a s*#t tonne of money.


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Re: Reduced Speeding Ticket & Failure to Show Proof of Insur
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 6:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:08 pm
Posts: 550
Showing the justice of peace proof of insurance or your pink card will not get the charge dropped. You're being charged with failing to surrender your insurance card to the officer upon request.

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/ ... c-c25.html
Quote:
Offence
(3) Every owner or lessee of a motor vehicle who,
(a) contravenes subsection (1) of this section or subsection 13 (11); or
(b) surrenders an insurance card for inspection to a police officer, when requested to do so, purporting to show that the motor vehicle is insured under a contract of automobile insurance when the motor vehicle is not so insured,

Showing the JP your insurance card may result in a suspended sentence, but the JP will not drop/quash the charge. You're still guilty of the charge.

Showing the prosecutor your pink insurance card might result in the charges get withdrawn, but that is solely at their discretion. They don't have to do that.

Both the insurance card and your speeding ticket will be dealt with at the exact same time. The courts schedule trial dates based on officer availability. Maybe some seasoned legal counsellors have insight into whether certain officers show up on certain days of the week and times.

The courts can only increase the charge if you proceed to trial. It doesn't hurt to ask for the insurance card to be dropped in exchange for a guilty conviction on the +15km/h.

As everyone here has already said, you might be able to fight the speeding ticket by cross-examining the officer about his training, testing and how he measured your speed. But you're guilty for the insurance card no matter what happens. It's very simple, the officer simply has to tell the courts that you failed to show him your insurance card. The risk of going to trial and being found guilty of +52km/h is too high.

You should file this for trial, request disclosure and get the officer's notes. Once you get that, you'll see the prosecution's evidence against you. If the officer's notes look good, and the prosecutor has fulfilled their disclosure obligations. Ask for the insurance card to be dropped in exchange for a guilty-plea for +15km/h.

Better to have one conviction on your record, then two.


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Re: Reduced Speeding Ticket & Failure to Show Proof of Insur
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:26 pm
Posts: 2881
Location: Toronto
jhol2772 wrote:
The idea that early resolution is a "it can't hurt" kind of situation, came from ticket defenders telling me directly they would meet with a prosecutor to work out a deal, and that the prosecutor would have to give the opportunity to accept the original charge before the charges can be increased.


This is correct (for the most part), and works in many cases. The charge can only be amended "up" at trial, however the option they have is to withdraw the speeding charge and proceed by summons for stunt driving. That's a risk that you would take. The question is, how vindictive is the Prosecutor?

My view is, the officer already gave you a really big break at the roadside, so a further reduction is unlikely, and the risk of it becoming much worse is there. But, as with all things, you have to decide what you are comfortable with, and what works best for you. If you are okay with the odds, then trying the early resolution meeting is something you could certainly go for.

_________________
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


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Re: Reduced Speeding Ticket & Failure to Show Proof of Insur
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 10:41 am 
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Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 8:19 am
Posts: 3
Thanks again for the follow up replies.

While having the "what could've happenned if?" question sticking around kind of sucks,
I am not a betting man and believe I am already overdrawn on luck...

In the end, Radar if I am to believe you, which i do since I have no reason not to, the risk vs reward question is ridiculously simple. I was originally led to believe the charge could not go up unless I go to trial, and I would have an opportunity to accept the original charge first. If that is not the case then I am paying the tickets for sure...

Risking my insurance being $13~$20/month cheaper by getting one of the charges dropped is not worth the likelihood of this going up into the stunt driving territory in my books (where I'm sure we are talking hundreds of dollars more a month, if I can get insurance at all...)

I am getting insurance on the 15th and paying the tickets on the 16th, so If all goes well my rates won't go up until I renew in May 2016 anyways (meaning I'm only paying $23-$50/month extra for 24 months).

Less than $600/ 2 years, hell, even less than $1500/ 2 years is more than fair in my eyes, so i won't be looking the gift horse in the mouth (or biting the hand that feeds... whichever phrase you choose to embrace lol)


Radar, Argyll, and iFly:
Thank you very much for your help and opinions on this matter. Had I continued on the path that I came to this forum intending to take it sounds like I would've been facing the maximum charges which would not only cost me a lot of money, but possibly have impacted my future career (automotive calibration engineer; driving is 70% of the job...).
I made a very stupid mistake, one that I don't deny or condone, and I appreciate the professional and straight forward approach you took in giving me advice, all the while lacking any judgement or animosity.

I count myself pretty lucky in two ways:
First- for the ticketing officer giving me a massive break.
Second- for finding you guys that take the time to help people like me.


Regards and Many Thanks.


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Re: Reduced Speeding Ticket & Failure to Show Proof of Insur
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 1:16 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:30 am
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You're welcome and kudos for approaching this in a mature manner. Good luck with the career.

_________________
Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


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Re: Reduced Speeding Ticket & Failure to Show Proof of Insur
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 2:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:26 pm
Posts: 2881
Location: Toronto
I'll add, you're welcome as well. You took a civil and mature approach, so you got a civil and mature response.

_________________
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


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