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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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Options in my Trial for 28km/h over
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:51 am 
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Hello, seeking some guidance.

I was issued a speeding ticket for 28km over the limit (128 in a 100).
I have chosen option 3 for Trial
Once i get my trial date, ill request discolsure.

When i was pulled over, the ticket issuing officer immediately told me that it was his seargent in a seperate loaction that "got you doing 128 coming up the previous hilll"

There was an off ramp between where I was apparently clocked and the place where the persuit car was parked (the on ramp)

if i pick the middle of "the prevous hill" as a starting point it was 2km to the off ramp, 3km to the persuit car, and 4km to where I got pulled over. I never saw any car except the persuit vehicle

I was behind 2 other vehicles doing 103km/h when we passed the persuit car ( i looked)

Fine is $135 dollars, 3 points - im not interested in a reduction in the charge Im looking to avoid conviction. This is only my second ticket, first one was over 25 yrs ago

I see no obvious errors on the ticket

so...

what are my options and tactics here ?

I assume both the issuing officer and the radar operating officer have to show up to effect a conviction ?

I also assume I can argue the fact that there was an off ramp between the point of radar reading and the parked persuit car to suggest that a vehicle as common as mine could have easily exited the busy highway and they did in fact pull over the wrong vehicle ?

Thanks in advance forany guidance


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Re: Options in my Trial for 28km/h over
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:24 pm 
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I believe that both officers would need to be there because one officer will testify to speed and other will testify to identification.

In your request for disclosure, make sure you request the notes of ALL officers involved. You will need to see both officers notes before you can really make a determination as to how to fight the ticket.

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Re: Options in my Trial for 28km/h over
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:50 pm 
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Thanks, I will definitely ask for notes from any and all officers involved


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Re: Options in my Trial for 28km/h over
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:18 pm 
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Got my trial date of October 15, and have requested diclosure.

odd that the disclosure form says it takes 4- 6 weeks to get disclosure and the Trial is 5 weeks away....

if i dont get it before trial date, ill be requesting adjournment/stop to allow myself time to prepare. whats a reasonable amount of time to prepare ? ie would i get a Stop/Adjournment if i only get the info a few days before ?


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Re: Options in my Trial for 28km/h over
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:34 pm 
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I would suggest that even if you got it a week in advance that is not enough time to prepare.

Approximately 21 days before the trial date, you could file a From 4F Stay request if you have not received the disclosure by then. Having your charge Stayed is basically the same as dropped. Most likely the JP will not approve the Stay request, in which case you can definitely ask for adjournment, but it is one extra opportunity and I usually like to take every opportunity possible.

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Re: Options in my Trial for 28km/h over
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:44 am 
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Thanks Will Do. Where do I locate an F4 stay request form ?


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Re: Options in my Trial for 28km/h over
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:08 pm 
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google "ontario 4f stay request"

Read the first 4 or 5 articles listed and you should find everything you need to know.

Personally I recommend the Fax method as opposed to the In Person method as it is much faster. You just need to print out the Fax "Sent Report" so you have proof of faxing it.

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Re: Options in my Trial for 28km/h over
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:43 pm 
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thanks, found it.

you recommend 21 days prior, is there a legal reason for that ? ie what if i pick 14 days, is there a down side to that ?


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Re: Options in my Trial for 28km/h over
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:35 pm 
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OK, I screwed up.

I was out of town on business and I missed the 15 days before the trial deadline for the Form 4F.

I have not yet received disclosure evidence, i am 12 days from Trial and heading away on business again a few times in the next 12 days.

So... What can I do now, ask for an Adjournment ? if so what exactly does that get me ?

thanks


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Re: Options in my Trial for 28km/h over
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:44 pm 
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Well all it really means is that you cannot make an "official request" to STAY the charge because of lack of disclosure. But most of the time, even with proper stay request filed at proper time, they will not stay the charge anyways and they will just tell prosecutor to get it to you.

So when they call you up you can just say "I have not received disclosure yet and requested X number of times on X dates, and would like it as soon as possible and would like to adjourn until I have had time to review it." Remember you should not plead guilty or not guilty before you get disclosure. So if they call you up and read the charge and say "how do you plead" you can just say "I cannot plead yet because I have not received disclosure"

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Re: Options in my Trial for 28km/h over
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:27 pm 
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Well, oddly, I got disclosure today (sunday) .

Both officers notes, the constable that pulled me over and the Sgt that got me on LIDAR. Driver record and Vehicle record. No LIDAR manual provided as aasked

Sgt with LIDAR was on top of the overpass, the constable was below, and in pursuit car.

Constables notes say I didnt dispute the speed, which i guess is technically true, but he did say to me "from the look on your face you seem surprised at 28 over" which I acknowledged i was surprised.

Constables notes also say "He was hurrying to get to the customs office before it closed", I did indicate I was heading for an appointment at the customs office before it closed at 4pm, I dont recall using the words "hurrying". I was pulled for speeding at 3:17, i was 10 minutes from the customs office, I still made it on time after being pulled and issued a ticket.

Aside form the speed dispute 128km/h at a distance of 523.52 meters, I dont see any errors.

what are my options, just hope one of the officers doesnt show up ? I know they both have to appear to give testimony.


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Re: Options in my Trial for 28km/h over
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:59 pm 
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If no manual as asked, then make a 2nd disclosure request and fax it to the clerk of the court AND the prosecutor as well.

Say something like "Thanks for the disclosure, however you did not provide me with a copy of the manual for the speed measuring device used. Please provide ASAP. You can mail to me at address below, or email to me if easier at my@email.com"

If you do not get the manual before trial (or they give it to you on the day of trial) I would ask for adjournment until you have had time to review the manual.

They can not say any your comments from their notes while on the witness stand. If they start saying "he said..." you immediately object and say "they need to prove any statements made were voluntary before they can enter them as evidence". If you object they will either (1) just continue and skip your comments, or (2) the prosecutor could ask for a voire dire where they will then have a mini-trial with you and the officer to determine if what you said was voluntary or compelled. In the voire dire if you say something like "I was just being friendly and co-operative" that would be a bad answer. On the other hand, a good answer would be something like "I did not volunteer that information. I told the officer that because I thought I was required, by law, to answer all his questions and be co-operative."

The last thing you should do is read ALL case law you can with LIDAR in it. Go to canlii.org and choose Ontario and type in LIDAR and start reading. You are looking for the cases that deal with the distance/measurement of lidar and the testing procedure of lidar. You can then use these to figure out how to question officer and bring reasonable doubt to their case with regards to distance and testing.

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Re: Options in my Trial for 28km/h over
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:58 am 
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Just so you're aware, in most cases, the entire manual is not required to be produced in disclosure. Only the testing procedure. Just because you ask for something doesn't mean you get it. If you don't get it but believe that you require the entire manual, you may have to argue that to the JP and they will decide. Also, if the officer was using the Lidar from the top of an overpass, the speed indicated on the Lidar is actually less than the speed you were travelling at due to the cosine effect.


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Re: Options in my Trial for 28km/h over
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:59 am 
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Very helpful, thanks guys.

Regarding this point "Also, if the officer was using the Lidar from the top of an overpass, the speed indicated on the Lidar is actually less than the speed you were travelling at due to the cosine effect."

is there a place to get some specifics on this ?


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Re: Options in my Trial for 28km/h over
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:46 pm 
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From googling Cosine, it would appear that the actual speed of the vehicle is faster than what appears on the LIDAR, so that would not be an argument in my favor.


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