I'm considering buying a strap-on motor for a bicycle for this summer, such as the one at http://www.motorizedbicycle.ca/bicycle- ... r-kit.html . However, I haven't been able to find any clear answers about what part of the law, if any, they fall under. The kit in question has a motor with a displacement of more than 50 cubic centimeters, which seems to mean it doesn't fall under the HTA's definition of a 'motor assisted bicycle'; and even if the displacement was small enough, I'm not sure whether the clutch would also disqualify it. From the news article at http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2012/08 ... _zone.html is the quote: So, does anyone on this board know what laws, if any, are applicable to such motorized bicycles?
I'm considering buying a strap-on motor for a bicycle for this summer, such as the one at http://www.motorizedbicycle.ca/bicycle- ... r-kit.html . However, I haven't been able to find any clear answers about what part of the law, if any, they fall under. The kit in question has a motor with a displacement of more than 50 cubic centimeters, which seems to mean it doesn't fall under the HTA's definition of a 'motor assisted bicycle'; and even if the displacement was small enough, I'm not sure whether the clutch would also disqualify it.
But traffic laws are still muddy on the legality of gas-powered bikes on Ontario roads.
"Its this really strange grey zone," said Const. Clinton Stibbe from Traffic Services.
Gas-powered bikes still have working pedals. If the cyclist is pedaling, both criminal law and the Highway Traffic Act consider it as a regular bike.
But if the cyclist fires up the engine usually controlled by squeezing a lever on the handlebar the bike becomes a motorized vehicle. Now, the cyclist is restricted from using bike lanes.
...
Although bicycles with gas-powered motors arent ideal for Toronto streets, Stibbe says theyre not illegal.
"We cant, at this point, arrest someone if theyre operating it according to the rules of the road," he said.
Although some motorized bikes are considered mopeds under the Ministry of Transportations definition, many are not. The bike involved in Thursdays accident was manufactured by Shandong Incalcu Electric Vehicle Co., a Chinese manufacturer that doesnt meet Ontarios commercial motor vehicle safety standards.
The standards require motorized bikes to have safety features such as have lights, a horn and acceleration and breaking requirements.
Bikes that dont meet these standards dont require insurance or license plates like mopeds. However, riders still need to be at least 16 years old.
So, does anyone on this board know what laws, if any, are applicable to such motorized bicycles?
Thank you for your time,
--
DataPacRat
"Then again, maybe I'm wrong."
I think you answered your own question. I didn't think there was an exception for under 50cc. You will be treated as a moped. I know someone who was charged with no license, no insurance, no valid permit.
I think you answered your own question. I didn't think there was an exception for under 50cc. You will be treated as a moped. I know someone who was charged with no license, no insurance, no valid permit.
Looking at the HTA at http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... 0h08_e.htm , and skimming the Definitions section, part of the definition of a "motor assisted bicycle" includes "has an attached motor driven by electricity or having a piston displacement of not more than fifty cubic centimetres", so the bicycle with the motor kit I linked to previously doesn't qualify. A "power-assisted bicycle" refers to the Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations which, at http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... age-1.html , only refers to vehicles with "electric motors"; so that doesn't describe it either. "Bicycle" might (or might not), and "motor vehicle" includes "any other vehicle propelled or driven otherwise than by muscular power" so that might (or might not), and "motorcycle" might (or might not)... As the newspaper article mentioned, it seems to be a big gray area. At the very least, it seems to be gray enough to be up to an individual police officer's interpretation, which goes against the idea of having the rule of law in the first place. From what I've been able to gather from various online sources, I /think/ that it's legal to use the above-linked engine kit with a bicycle, without requiring a license. I'm hoping that someone reading this thread will be able to offer any references that are more solid than the ones I've found so far, one way or the other.
ynotp wrote:
I think you answered your own question. I didn't think there was an exception for under 50cc. You will be treated as a moped. I know someone who was charged with no license, no insurance, no valid permit.
Looking at the HTA at http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... 0h08_e.htm , and skimming the Definitions section, part of the definition of a "motor assisted bicycle" includes "has an attached motor driven by electricity or having a piston displacement of not more than fifty cubic centimetres", so the bicycle with the motor kit I linked to previously doesn't qualify. A "power-assisted bicycle" refers to the Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations which, at http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... age-1.html , only refers to vehicles with "electric motors"; so that doesn't describe it either. "Bicycle" might (or might not), and "motor vehicle" includes "any other vehicle propelled or driven otherwise than by muscular power" so that might (or might not), and "motorcycle" might (or might not)...
As the newspaper article mentioned, it seems to be a big gray area. At the very least, it seems to be gray enough to be up to an individual police officer's interpretation, which goes against the idea of having the rule of law in the first place.
From what I've been able to gather from various online sources, I /think/ that it's legal to use the above-linked engine kit with a bicycle, without requiring a license. I'm hoping that someone reading this thread will be able to offer any references that are more solid than the ones I've found so far, one way or the other.
Thank you for your time,
--
DataPacRat
"Then again, maybe I'm wrong."
Relevant cases R. v. Davies, 2013 ONCJ 639 (CanLII): http://canlii.ca/t/g21vw R. v. Ryan, 2012 BCPC 67 (CanLII): http://canlii.ca/t/fql0c R. v. Kulbacki, 2012 ONCJ 532 (CanLII): http://canlii.ca/t/fshj3 R. v. Pizzacalla, 2013 ONCJ 31 (CanLII): http://canlii.ca/t/fvxv6 R. v. Pizzacalla, 2013 ONSC 771 (CanLII): http://canlii.ca/t/fvz2c R. v. Luymes, 2010 ONCJ 282 (CanLII): http://canlii.ca/t/2bmkg Most of the people who're getting charged appear to have suspended licenses and a poor history with the law. A lot of them appear to have successfully used officially induced error & due-diligence to get away from serious charges. It's crystal clear that your DIY bike will fall under the definition of a "motor vehicle". Because your bike does not qualify as a Motor-Assisted Bicycle you can't use the restrict limited-speed motorcycle license, i'm not sure what class license you need or if it exists. _____________________________ Have you considered looking at ebikes, 'Power-assisted Bicycles'? http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/ ... ]Operating Requirements 10. What do I need to operate an e-bike? To operate an e-bike: No driver's licence is required No written test is required No vehicle registration or plate is required No motor vehicle liability insurance is required All operators/riders/passengers must be 16 years of age and older. All operators/riders/passengers on operating an e-bike are required to wear an approved bicycle or motorcycle helmet.[/quote]
Most of the people who're getting charged appear to have suspended licenses and a poor history with the law. A lot of them appear to have successfully used officially induced error & due-diligence to get away from serious charges.
"motor vehicle" includes an automobile, a motorcycle, a motor-assisted bicycle unless otherwise indicated in this Act, and any other vehicle propelled or driven otherwise than by muscular power, but does not include a street car or other motor vehicle running only upon rails, a power-assisted bicycle, a motorized snow vehicle, a traction engine, a farm tractor, a self-propelled implement of husbandry or a road-building machine;
It's crystal clear that your DIY bike will fall under the definition of a "motor vehicle". Because your bike does not qualify as a Motor-Assisted Bicycle you can't use the restrict limited-speed motorcycle license, i'm not sure what class license you need or if it exists.
The Criminal Code of Canada defines a "motor vehicle" as follows: "motor vehicle" means a vehicle that is drawn, propelled or driven by any means other than muscular power, but does not include railway equipment.
Permit requirements
7. (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a highway unless,
(a) there exists a currently validated permit for the vehicle;
(b) there are displayed on the vehicle, in the prescribed manner,
(i) number plates issued in accordance with the regulations showing the number of the permit issued for the vehicle, or
(c) evidence of the current validation of the permit is affixed, in the prescribed manner, to,
(i) one of the number plates mentioned in subclause (b) (i) displayed on the vehicle, or
(ii) to a mini-plate attached to the number plate exposed on the rear of the vehicle, if number plates described in subsection (7.2) are displayed on the vehicle. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 7 (1); 2000, c. 29, s. 1 (1).
Compulsory automobile insurance
2. (1) Subject to the regulations, no owner or lessee of a motor vehicle shall,
(a) operate the motor vehicle; or
(b) cause or permit the motor vehicle to be operated,
on a highway unless the motor vehicle is insured under a contract of automobile insurance. 1994, c. 11, s. 383; 1996, c. 21, s. 50 (3).
Drivers licence
32. (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a highway unless the motor vehicle is within a class of motor vehicles in respect of which the person holds a drivers licence issued to him or her under this Act. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 32 (1).
Thank you /very/ much for these links - they help tremendously in clearing up a good deal of the gray area. R. v. Ryan indicates that if a vehicle is uninsurable - which, given that such motorized bicycles lack VINs can be taken as a default - then there is no crime in not having insurance for it. I do not currently have a driver's license, so 'driving while suspended' would also seem to not be a worry. Since it's gasoline-powered rather than electric, the power-assisted bicycle category in the HTA doesn't apply. Since it has a saddle, it seems reasonably certain that if bike-plus-motor qualifies as a 'motor assisted bicycle' then it is one, otherwise it counts as a 'motorcycle'. The main reason the motor kit I first described doesn't qualify is that its piston displacement is too large. Upon a bit of further investigation, I've found a near-identical kit, with a displacement of only 48 cc ( http://www.motorizedbicycle.ca/bicycle- ... r-kit.html ). That would seem to solve most of the outstanding issues, for example section 61. of the HTA says that motor-assisted bicycles don't count as 'motor vehicles' for that part. And as long as the whole thing counts as a MAB instead of a motorcycle, the only section under the Licensing part of the act that mentions them is s. 38., which sets the minimum age. There is still /some/ gray area left, though, but I think it falls in the favor of being able to ride such vehicles instead of simply prohibiting them entirely. For example, in regards to licensing, the FAQ at http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/ ... -faq.shtml describes limited-speed motorcycles and mopeds in ways that seem to exclude the bicycle-plus-48cc-motor, which seems to imply that such a license is unavailable for that vehicle, which seems to imply that such a license is unnecessary. My plan - such as it is - is to use the strap-on engine as a boost while bicycle-camping, to help extend the range I can travel and reduce fatigue from pedaling (especially when going uphill). Gasoline is easy to acquire on most of the routes I've been looking at; electric charge, much less so. So I'm afraid that the battery and engine of an ebike would be mostly dead weight during such trips, which would defeat the purpose.
Most of the people who're getting charged appear to have suspended licenses and a poor history with the law. A lot of them appear to have successfully used officially induced error & due-diligence to get away from serious charges.
Thank you /very/ much for these links - they help tremendously in clearing up a good deal of the gray area.
R. v. Ryan indicates that if a vehicle is uninsurable - which, given that such motorized bicycles lack VINs can be taken as a default - then there is no crime in not having insurance for it.
I do not currently have a driver's license, so 'driving while suspended' would also seem to not be a worry.
Since it's gasoline-powered rather than electric, the power-assisted bicycle category in the HTA doesn't apply. Since it has a saddle, it seems reasonably certain that if bike-plus-motor qualifies as a 'motor assisted bicycle' then it is one, otherwise it counts as a 'motorcycle'. The main reason the motor kit I first described doesn't qualify is that its piston displacement is too large. Upon a bit of further investigation, I've found a near-identical kit, with a displacement of only 48 cc ( http://www.motorizedbicycle.ca/bicycle- ... r-kit.html ). That would seem to solve most of the outstanding issues, for example section 61. of the HTA says that motor-assisted bicycles don't count as 'motor vehicles' for that part. And as long as the whole thing counts as a MAB instead of a motorcycle, the only section under the Licensing part of the act that mentions them is s. 38., which sets the minimum age.
There is still /some/ gray area left, though, but I think it falls in the favor of being able to ride such vehicles instead of simply prohibiting them entirely. For example, in regards to licensing, the FAQ at http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/ ... -faq.shtml describes limited-speed motorcycles and mopeds in ways that seem to exclude the bicycle-plus-48cc-motor, which seems to imply that such a license is unavailable for that vehicle, which seems to imply that such a license is unnecessary.
Have you considered looking at ebikes, 'Power-assisted Bicycles'?
My plan - such as it is - is to use the strap-on engine as a boost while bicycle-camping, to help extend the range I can travel and reduce fatigue from pedaling (especially when going uphill). Gasoline is easy to acquire on most of the routes I've been looking at; electric charge, much less so. So I'm afraid that the battery and engine of an ebike would be mostly dead weight during such trips, which would defeat the purpose.
Thank you for your time,
--
DataPacRat
"Then again, maybe I'm wrong."
Here is another article where the MTO & Waterloo Regional Police have responded http://www.therecord.com/sports-story/2 ... fine-mess/ Officials from the Ontario Ministry of Transportation and Waterloo Regional Police say theyre illegal motorized cycles. Theyre not the same as electric e-bikes, which run on batteries and are allowed under special provincial legislation. "A converted moped would not meet the 12 federal safety standards for limited-speed motorcycles, and therefore would not be registered for use on Ontarios public roads," said Bob Nichols, a Transportation Ministry spokesperson. Nor does having a 50 cubic centimetre or smaller gas engine exempt you from licensing and insurance laws, said Sgt. Dave Reibel, a former traffic squad officer with the regional police. Get caught driving without insurance and you face a minimum $5,000 fine and problems getting insurance in future. "Its not illegal to sell (motor conversion kits), because you can use them on private property or your farm. As soon as you go off private property, you have a problem," Reibel said. Your website also has a disclaimer http://www.motorizedbicycle.ca/disclaimer[quote]Not all motorized bicycles are allowed for on road use. We make no guarantee as to the road legality of these bike motors.
Officials from the Ontario Ministry of Transportation and Waterloo Regional Police say theyre illegal motorized cycles. Theyre not the same as electric e-bikes, which run on batteries and are allowed under special provincial legislation.
"A converted moped would not meet the 12 federal safety standards for limited-speed motorcycles, and therefore would not be registered for use on Ontarios public roads," said Bob Nichols, a Transportation Ministry spokesperson.
Nor does having a 50 cubic centimetre or smaller gas engine exempt you from licensing and insurance laws, said Sgt. Dave Reibel, a former traffic squad officer with the regional police.
Get caught driving without insurance and you face a minimum $5,000 fine and problems getting insurance in future.
"Its not illegal to sell (motor conversion kits), because you can use them on private property or your farm. As soon as you go off private property, you have a problem," Reibel said.
[/quote] Either the reporting of that story or the 'officials' described therein seemed to be completely missing the entire category of "motor-assisted bicycles" - that's presumably why the 50-cubic-centimeter size was mentioned by the defendant.
iFly55 wrote:
Here is another article where the MTO & Waterloo Regional Police have responded http://www.therecord.com/sports-story/2 ... ]Officials from the Ontario Ministry of Transportation and Waterloo Regional Police say theyre illegal motorized cycles. Theyre not the same as electric e-bikes, which run on batteries and are allowed under special provincial legislation.
"A converted moped would not meet the 12 federal safety standards for limited-speed motorcycles, and therefore would not be registered for use on Ontarios public roads," said Bob Nichols, a Transportation Ministry spokesperson.
Nor does having a 50 cubic centimetre or smaller gas engine exempt you from licensing and insurance laws, said Sgt. Dave Reibel, a former traffic squad officer with the regional police.
Get caught driving without insurance and you face a minimum $5,000 fine and problems getting insurance in future.
"Its not illegal to sell (motor conversion kits), because you can use them on private property or your farm. As soon as you go off private property, you have a problem," Reibel said.
[/quote]
Either the reporting of that story or the 'officials' described therein seemed to be completely missing the entire category of "motor-assisted bicycles" - that's presumably why the 50-cubic-centimeter size was mentioned by the defendant.
Thank you for your time,
--
DataPacRat
"Then again, maybe I'm wrong."
I owned one many years ago. It was a Hercules model.(it would go 100 miles on a tank) tank held 3 liters. Rules at that time :::none:::: Except engine must be under 50 cc and pedals working and top speed of 28 kph. The rules have changed. Back then it was no different then a bicycle. Cheers Viper1
I owned one many years ago. It was a Hercules model.(it would go 100 miles on a tank) tank held 3 liters.
Rules at that time :::none::::
Except engine must be under 50 cc and pedals working and top speed of 28 kph.
The rules have changed.
Back then it was no different then a bicycle.
Cheers
Viper1
"hang onto your chair when reading my posts
use at your own risk"
I sent a message to the Ministry of Transportation Ontario inquiring for the details, and just got back a reply, which includes this paragraph: A bicycle on which a gasoline engine has been installed is a motor vehicle, but because it is not a motor vehicle which has been certified to federal standards by a vehicle manufacturer it cannot be registered for on-road use. The vehicle may be used on private property, with the property-owners permission; however, it may not be operated on a public road. Since the vehicle type in question is a modified bicycle, it is not a motorcycle or moped. Therefore the vehicle is most accurately described as a "non-compliant motor vehicle." Thus it appears that the MTO's official position is that motorized bicycles - which would seem to include the "motor-assisted bicycles" from the Highway Traffic Act - are verboten. It's a shame - I was starting to look forward to using one to improve my bicycle-camping experience.
I sent a message to the Ministry of Transportation Ontario inquiring for the details, and just got back a reply, which includes this paragraph:
A bicycle on which a gasoline engine has been installed is a motor vehicle, but because it is not a motor vehicle which has been certified to federal standards by a vehicle manufacturer it cannot be registered for on-road use. The vehicle may be used on private property, with the property-owners permission; however, it may not be operated on a public road. Since the vehicle type in question is a modified bicycle, it is not a motorcycle or moped. Therefore the vehicle is most accurately described as a "non-compliant motor vehicle."
Thus it appears that the MTO's official position is that motorized bicycles - which would seem to include the "motor-assisted bicycles" from the Highway Traffic Act - are verboten. It's a shame - I was starting to look forward to using one to improve my bicycle-camping experience.
Thank you for your time,
--
DataPacRat
"Then again, maybe I'm wrong."
I followed the procedures mentioned in the previous threads regarding the disclosure and received it today. My court date is November 5 2009 in Whitby. After going through the notes I realized 2 things:
1- the notes are horribly illegible and difficult to read
2- I have notes from two different officers.
Now I am not sure if this means that both the officers will be at court for the hearing or…
I hope I can paint the picture with the accuracy that the truth deserves. I have no intention of just beating a ticket.. but more like beating a really unfair ticket. You decide!
I had entered Canada after a short trip downsouth through Detroit on my way to Toronto. Not being equipped with a GPS unit I had to rely on the printable poorman's version from Mapquest. I followed Huron Church Rd.,…
Need an expert advice here. 10 days ago I got a speeding ticket. Ticket has a fatal error on its face-offense not known to law. It says speeding 75km/hr in posted 60km/hr zone. What is the best way to proceed?
1. Should I completely ignore this ticket and let the JP to quash it?
2. Should I go with option 3 - request a trial and force the fatal error by not showing up at court?
My name is Brian. I am in my late 20s and live in Toronto. I do not own a car but half a dozen times a year I rent one with my Visa. (To get out of the city and go to a beach or ski for example.)
I have never drunk and drive but I face a problem and Im wondering if anyone can tell me what to do. Several months ago I was at a weekend party and had quit a bit to consume. When I stopped…
I was travelling east bound on ellesmere road and approached markham road attempting to make a right turn. All signal lights were red and cars traveling down markham road south were given the green arrow. I slowed down and attempted to make the right turn. I got ticketed by a cop who was parked in a gas station facing the intersection in a (no parking zone). I…
Crested a hill, officer coming at me, pulled a u turn and pulled me over.
I will go back and look again but I thought I was in an 80 not a 70 and I am positive I wasn't doing more than 120. My speedo read 110-115. I have aftermarket tires and rims so I assume this would be the difference.
It was around 7pm, already dark, nobody on the road but myself,…
I am looking for the case law that is commonly used when the prosecution says they only need to disclose the testing pages of a radar manual or laser manual.
I am only interested in the binding decisions (appeals court or higher?), and not in the non-binding Justice of the Peace decisions.
I was pulled over two nights ago and charged with failing to stop a stop sign. On the ticket, it says 'disobey stop sign - foil to stop' and does not say 'fail' -- something I think may be a fatal flaw? I have been driving for 12 years with no tickets, yet I live in Brampton where insurance prices are high so I do not want to be convicted as my insurance rates will spike significantly and…
A friend of mine (who is from China and with no knowledge of English at all) asked me to interpret for him on court.
He got pulled over by a stealth patrol car last october, got 3 tickets (fail to show insurance card, using cell phones and fail to stop on right for emergency vehicle) , court date is next week. He told me his insurance expired for less than a month and other charges are false…
I understand the severity of my offences, and I can't stress how much I regret it. I know I endangered the lives of myself and more importantly others. I usually do not speed and I know running late for work is an unacceptable excuse. I will be a man and accept the consequences of my actions although I would appreciate any advice for my situation.
Guys back in january i got a speeding ticket on dvp, but i am 90% sure he did not caught me on radar, i asked for disclosure request and i just received today, I have asked for: a full copy of the police officers notes, a copy of both sides of the officers copy of the ticket, witness will say statements, speed gun manual, calibration record, repair history and officer's training certificate but…
I need some help here. So today I was on my way to get my tires changed from my winter tires to my regular summer staggered set of tires. I was driving in mississauga on my way to my destination, I got pulled over by an officer where I was given a ticket for having improper mudguards. For some context, I drive a stock 2013 C63 AMG with winter tires at the time. I was never…
I'd like to start this off by saying for the last two weeks I have been browsing the forums. I'm trying to prepare myself for an early resolution meeting with a prosecutor (in Brampton, if that matters). I have a clean record and as a teacher, I always do my best to follow rules (trying to practice what I preach!)
On December 4, 2014 I was preparing to turn right at a very busy intersection.…
I have question, today I was going to work in my normal route there is a triangle intersection with my side being the only one with a stop sign.
There's a car in front me who stopped at the stop sign, and the third-side there's a incoming car with their hazard-light flashing but they don't have stop sign, yet coming in at a slow speed.
Right after the car in front me went through the stop sign,…
On my way to work this morning I received a ticket for disobey sign. I was on Hwy 10 Mississauga in the right lane. The right lane leads to the 401 and there is a sign saying Right Lane Exits. I Tried to merge left before the on ramp as did 3 other people. We all got a ticket for doing that. Is there anything I can do? I did not realize I was breaking any law it was a dotted line where I tried to…
This is my first post, before I jump right in I would like to thank the forum, members, posters and moderators for all the information posted. I feel like I have been able to learn a lot from others experiences, so thank you all.
This will be a lengthy post. But if you are dealing with a Disobey Sign HTA 182(2) - No Straight Through Intersection you may find this extremely…
Let me start this with saying that this isn't in regards to a ticket, more a discussion surrounding front license plates and learning about the rules behind them. (Most of the quote stuff is using colloquial terms, mostly because I couldn't really find a better way to describe it; it's not meant to be offensive.)
I know Ontario law/HTA mandates having a front license plate unlike some States in…
Hi Guys! I've just had my trial day yesterday. I was not at fault but was convicted anyways.
It is such a travesty! There is no justice at the traffic court. It is just a no mercy machine to part someone with his money, no common sense applies and no reasonable argument being considered. Such a shame! The justice, the policeman and the prosecutor ganged up against me. The justice kept interrupting…
Well first of all ... glad to have found the forum - hoping to find answers to 'alot' of questions
I was unfortunate in July 2010 in that I ended up rolling my 2009 Ranger three times, through a fence and landing on the roof on a rained-out road that was/is in need of proper repair in Eastern Ontario.
I was assisted out of the vehicle by the driver who was behind me.
I was traveling down the 401, noticed a speed trap, and started flashing my lights -- in order to warn oncoming drivers.
Within a 30 seconds, a car slowed, crossed the grass, and approached me from behind. Lights appeared, and I then realised that this was an officer in an undercover car.
The officer pulled me over, and while he was polite, clearly his motivation was to…
Does anyone know the specific law, statute, Charter right to refer to when a prosecutor or justice attempts to change the charge on a ticket after a trial has begun? I assume I'd object immediately (without interrupting anyone, of course) but what would be the specific legal basis of my objection?
I was right behind a school bus that looked like it was pulling over to the side in order to turn down a side street, I saw no lights so decided to go around (wide street). Was still moving as I was passing, then as I did pass I heard horn and looked back and in fact it was pulling over to p/u school kids (was a block away from my son's school, so just assumed it wouldn't be picking up kids...it…
