Disclosure, change court date

I need some advice and help on this.

my court date is June 26. I was charged with 142(1) turn not in saftey on March 11. I have asked for disclosure via postal mail in April and hand delivered on June 1st. I have not recieved disclosure.

I filed a motion to change my court date and I need to attend the court on june 19.

My question is, can I also file a section 7 using form 4F for non-disclosure at the same time ?

blackdog wrote:

I need some advice and help on this.

my court date is June 26. I was charged with 142(1) turn not in saftey on March 11. I have asked for disclosure via postal mail in April and hand delivered on June 1st. I have not recieved disclosure.

I filed a motion to change my court date and I need to attend the court on june 19.

My question is, can I also file a section 7 using form 4F for non-disclosure at the same time ?

Form 4F needs to be filed 15 days before the trial date, it's already too late.

You can go to court on that day, if the cop is there and the prosecutor wants to proceed with the trial you can tell the JP that you have not received disclosure, the JP should give you another trial date. don't forget to bring receipts of request for disclosure.

If the cop is not there, don't take the plea bargain, just wait till you are called in front of the JP, if the prosecutor does not withdraw the charge, plead not guilty, he will then have to withdraw the charge or adjourn the trial because of cop no-show.

I also want to comment that if you were to file form 4F, if it is denied and the cop is not there, the trial may be adjourned and you will have to return another day.

Without filing form 4F and cop no-show you leave the door open for the trial to proceed on that day and get the charge withdrawn (at least an adjournment) on that day (only do this when you have not got your disclosure therefore you are guaranteed with an adjournment). So a bit of a gamble there. Anybody correct me if i am wrong on this.

How do you know if the cop is present (assuming you can't remember what he looks like)? Is the prosecutor required to tell you if the officer is present?

Also, wouldn't you have to request an adjournment before arraignment (according to Ticketcombat's site)? So if you "play the game" and plead "not guilty" after arraignment, have you missed the opportunity to request an adjournment for lack of disclosure?

If the cop shows up, the prosecutor will tell you that he is there if you ask.

If the cop is not there (yet), the prosecutor could say "he won't be here today" or "he may be late" if you ask.

I would check the court docket first, if the cop's ID appears with many drivers names on the docket, i would guess he will show up.

To ID him, you can ask other drivers waiting there, listen in to the prosecutor's conversation with cops as he's called by his ID#.(is it also his badge#?), ask the prosecutor, ask other cops, cop has stacks of PON in their hands....

The prosecutor or JP asks you if you are ready to proceed, if you want an adjournment, tell them. I guess you can still ask for an adjournment after arraignment if the circumstance gives rise to it. but anybody correct me if i am wrong.

blackdog wrote:

I filed a motion to change my court date and I need to attend the court on june 19.

Is your June 19 date your trial or just to hear the motion to change the trial date? If it's your trial date, then state you haven't received disclosure which means an adjournment.

If it's not your trial date, then you have requested disclosure twice (in April and June) and can use form 4f to apply for a stay based on a s.7 violation for non-disclosure. You must file 20 days in advance of the trial date.

pch2004 wrote:

Also, wouldn't you have to request an adjournment before arraignment (according to Ticketcombat's site)? So if you "play the game" and plead "not guilty" after arraignment, have you missed the opportunity to request an adjournment for lack of disclosure?

When YOU ask for an adjournment the clock stops ticking. Why should you pay for their non-disclosure? Instead of asking for an adjournment, force an adjournment. Because they didn't give you disclosure, they must ask for an adjournment to provide you with the info. The clock keeps ticking and you are setup nicely for an 11b.

to clarify. The June 19 date is to request a new court date changed from June 26. I am expecting this will be granted - but dont know for a fact. I will not be in the country due to a last minute personal reason which I will state on June 19. however, I can be here on June 26 if I absolutley have to for reason I stated below...

Ticketcomabat - please clarify this point for me. If I am requesting a court date change am I forcing an adjournament there by ruining my chances of filing 4f for non-disclsure???

Thanks liveontheedge and ticketcombat. Your knowledge is much appreciated.

How do you force (as opposed to request) an adjournment? You are called and say "Your Worship, the prosecutor has failed to provide disclosure/adequate disclosure and therefore I am forcing an adjournment". I'm not being silly, I'm just wondering how to word it (assuming the prosecutor is ready to proceed, the cop is there, and the prosecutor won't willingly request an adjournment).

Also, if the case is adjourned, how do you apply for costs? If you have to drive an hour to get to the court, do you charge by the km? Submit an invoice or receipts for gas?

pch2004 wrote:

Also, if the case is adjourned, how do you apply for costs? If you have to drive an hour to get to the court, do you charge by the km? Submit an invoice or receipts for gas

?

Um, no. Nice thought though....

blackdog wrote:

Ticketcombat - please clarify this point for me. If I am requesting a court date change am I forcing an adjournment there by ruining my chances of filing 4f for non-disclosure???

Kind of. You are wrecking your chances for an 11b since you are causing the delay. You are also giving the prosecutor more time to complete disclosure.

On the bright side, you will have more than 20 days time to file your stay application.

pch2004 wrote:

Thanks liveontheedge and ticketcombat. Your knowledge is much appreciated.

How do you force (as opposed to request) an adjournment? You are called and say "Your Worship, the prosecutor has failed to provide disclosure/adequate disclosure and therefore I am forcing an adjournment". I'm not being silly, I'm just wondering how to word it (assuming the prosecutor is ready to proceed, the cop is there, and the prosecutor won't willingly request an adjournment).

It's better to have applied for a stay but you can verbally say (after the arraignment - "how do you plead?"), "I have requested disclosure and I not received any response. WE cannot proceed to trial without it." If the justice is a jerk he may ask you what do you want to do about it? Say that is a better question for the Crown.

pch2004 wrote:

Also, if the case is adjourned, how do you apply for costs? If you have to drive an hour to get to the court, do you charge by the km? Submit an invoice or receipts for gas?

Charter breaches (i.e. no disclosure - s. 7) are one of the few grounds to award costs in criminal/POA courts. But you have to show that the Crown's actions were a considerable departure from their disclosure obligations. Just the fact you didn't get it (not enough time, no response from the officer, clerical error) is not good enough. You have to show they deliberately disregarded their duty. Here are some cases:

R. v. Guiducci, 2005 CanLII 10 (ON S.C.)

R. v. Foster, 2003 CanLII 26341 (ON S.C.)

Manywounds

Abrey

My first court date was in June and it was adjourned as the prosecutor had failed to give me full disclosure. The second court date is in August. I got a call from the prosecutor yesterday and he asked me to pick up the disclosure from his office.

The first disclosure request form that I sent to him had my phone number on it but then I asked for more information and used the form from ticketcombat website and didn't put any phone number on that.

I asked him to mail the disclosure but he refused that. He cannot prseume that I'll lie even if I get it in mail. His demand is unreasonable as I have to take a day off at work to pick up the disclosure. Now, it's plenty of time and the prosecutor can easily mail it.

Can I go to court in August and say that I haven't got a disclosure as the prosecutor never mailed one even after my repeated requests. My plan is to pick up the disclosure at that time and ask for an an adjourment. Is it a good strategy or I could be forced with the trial that day as I failed in my duty to go in person and pick it up?

valhadi wrote:

...I asked him to mail the disclosure but he refused that. He cannot prseume that I'll lie even if I get it in mail. His demand is unreasonable as I have to take a day off at work to pick up the disclosure. Now, it's plenty of time and the prosecutor can easily mail it. .....

I think the rule says that disclosure is not to be mailed. You must pick it up.

That used to be the rule but I've noticed some jurisdictions will mail or fax disclosure out, while others refuse to. I asked the AG to clarify what the rule is since downloading court services to municipalities. I don't expect a response before the end of the decade!

I was successfull in moving my court date to September from Jun 26. I have already asked for disclosure twice and not recieved anything. When I go to court in Sep I'm hoping 1 of 2 things happens:

1. cop does not show and case is dismissed

2. cop shows - I cannot provide full defence due to non disclosure and hope JP dismisses or adjourns the case.

While I was in court one women got an adjournament for non-disclosure motion eventhough she did not file a 4F. The JP did question her on why she waited so long to ask for disclosure. not sure of what she said but in the end she got a new court date.

Quick question -

While requesting a witness interview and witness criminal check, do I need to mention the reasons in a disclosure request to the prosecutor? OR I just need to provide the reasons to the Justice of Peace when the prosecutor doesn't provide the witness interview and criminal check.

valhadi wrote:

Quick question -

While requesting a witness interview and witness criminal check, do I need to mention the reasons in a disclosure request to the prosecutor? OR I just need to provide the reasons to the Justice of Peace when the prosecutor doesn't provide the witness interview and criminal check.

I think it would be beneficial to you and me if you would create your own thread and ask these questions.

liveontheedge wrote:

I think the rule says that disclosure is not to be mailed. You must pick it up.

I agree, I did what ticketcombat and other sources recommended, to not put my number on the disclosure request. In court, the crown and I talked about the disclosure (how I did not receive any), and he agreed to adjourn my case. When I was called up the crown already asked the JP for an adjourment, the JP asked why and I mentioned I did not receive disclosure. The crown said disclosure was ready 2 weeks prior to the court date and I did not pick it up, I argued that my mailing address was on the disclosure request so why couldn't the crown atleast mail me a notice or letter asking for my address? JP didn't seem to budge, and said I was responsible for picking it up.

In the end, my case was adjourned to a later date, I'm just not sure if it's to my advantage because the crown did announce to the JP and made a note that disclosure was ready 2 weeks in advance of my 1st court appearance.

my court date is approcahing - sep 3rd and am wondering how things will go down.

1. got into an accident in March 09 and recieved ticket for failing to signal..etc Accident was not my fault but got ticket anyway.

2. went to court to change the June 26 court date due to I could not make the date - changed to Sep 3rd

3. asked for disclosure in April via mail and hand delivered in June

4. court date is Sep 3rd and I have not recieved any disclosure

I have not filed a 4f for non-disclosure in the hopes that the officer or the other party do not show and the whole thing is thrown out

What can I expect when i go to court ?

The Crown needs the cop and a witness to show up to testify that you failed to signal in order to have a chance of convicting you.

The witness or the cop might not show up and you have not got disclosure so far, my take is that the Crown would withdraw the charge, however come prepared.

liveontheedge wrote:

The Crown needs the cop and a witness to show up to testify that you failed to signal in order to have a chance of convicting you.

The witness or the cop might not show up and you have not got disclosure so far, my take is that the Crown would withdraw the charge, however come prepared.

thanks for that - could you tell me how much preperation should I do ? I mean I can tell exactly what happened during the accident. Is there anything else I need to bring with me or research before hand ?

One poster reported that there was no notification of disclosure being ready for him, and the JP didn't allow the 4F. So, go to the court again, see if they have the package ready and "forgot" to call you. Just in case.

According to info you posted, you were in an accident and the cop came and gave you a ticket. I assume the cop did not see any of your not signaling and he issued the ticket based solely on hearsay of a witness.

If you knew who is the cop's witness, then look for both of them before trial. Under this scenario, if either one of them is not there, don't take the plea bargain (don't say no just say you'll think about it and get back later), don't mention about disclosure you have not received, wait till you are called, the crown may withdraw the charge.

If the Crown does not withdraw the charge then you have a choice of proceeding to trial without disclosure (taking advantage of no witness appeared for the cop, only you who knows the circumstances of your case to make this decision) or ask for or force an adjournment due to no disclosure.

If you put your phone number on the disclosure request and you have not got the call from the Crown's office then I beleive it's the Crown's responsibilty to inform you for picking up the disclosure.

If you did not have the phone number on the disclosure request, then prepare to answer the judge as to why you have not picked up the disclosure assuming the disclosure is ready.

In any case, they might give you the disclosure at trial date and therefore the trial will be adjourned at whose fault depending on how good your argument is. The fault determination is to use in the 11b defence in the future.

had my day in court today.

going into this without disclosure but requested twice

1. Crown tried to get me to take a lesser charge - I refussed

2. Cop and witness showed up

3. wnet to trial and I asked for a motion to stay the matter due to non disclosure. At first the judge seemed a little angry that I did not tell this to the crown. I stated that I honestly did not know. I asked for a stay the crown disagreed but the judge in the end granted me an adjournment!

I was very polite in the courtroom and to the judge. Addressed her as '

your worship' and was always listening and polite.

The idot crown guy had the disclosure with him when I signed in but he did not mention it to me.

I now have the disclosure and I am noticing many errors by the cop.

My 3rd court date is end of October. managed to get 2 adjournments but I have a pretty good feeling that the cop and witness will show for the Oct trial.

I have just recieved disclosure and found numerous errors on the accident report. The cop has mixed up V1 and V2 and is not consistent with the errors. Sometimes he has them correct on the accidnet report then down below where he explains further waht happens he has reversed them. He also has me going north when I was going south.

His own notes appear to be correct however some of them I cannot read.

How do I use the errors on the accident report to my advantage when this goes to trial ? also, should I recquest the notes be typed up before the 3rd court date ?

appreciated if I can get some help on the above.

Make a huge list of questions, so that every question can be answered from either the notes or the accident report. Have him answer, and then draw attention to the incorrect version, if what he says on the stand is against you.

racer wrote:

Make a huge list of questions, so that every question can be answered from either the notes or the accident report. Have him answer, and then draw attention to the incorrect version, if what he says on the stand is against you.

The officers notes make more sense than the accident report. So I need to attack this using the accident report. On that report he has me on the wrong street and going the wrong speed and direction. However, his drawing on the accident report is correct.

the boxes on the accident report state:

v1 = me

r1 = he has me on the wrong road

v1 speed = he has me going 60km/hr - I was going less than 5 km/hr or stopped

he states that v1 was making a left turn going northbound when infact I was making a rightturn going northbound.

v2 = otherdiver

r2 = he has other driver on the wrong road

v2 speed = he has the other driver going 15km/hr, he was doing around 60.

can you give me a sample dialogue from the above facts of how I should state the questions ?

thank you

Just try to analyze what the accident report says that is wrong, make a question regarding each point you find, and ask the cop all of them in succession. The questions need to be your own. There are quite a few links pointed to actual recorded court proceedings here, you have to dig them up though. Canlii is an excellent source.

THANK YOU very much for everyone who helped and advised on this and special thankyou to ticketcombat. My case went to trial despite the Prosecuters many attempts to have me plead guilty to lesser...blah blah..

case went to trial, half way in while the prosecuter was questioning the other driver she recommended to withdraw the charges..not able to proceed because of lack of evidence.

I WON!!

blackdog wrote:

case went to trial, half way in while the prosecuter was questioning the other driver she recommended to withdraw the charges..not able to proceed because of lack of evidence.

I WON!!

good for you....

having said that...the other driver is the "key witness" and if that driver can not bring thru enough evidence the case will be tossed regardlesss of police, as the officer was not there to witness the collision.