Disclosure, change court date

blackdog
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Unread post by blackdog on

valhadi wrote:Quick question -

While requesting a witness interview and witness criminal check, do I need to mention the reasons in a disclosure request to the prosecutor? OR I just need to provide the reasons to the Justice of Peace when the prosecutor doesn't provide the witness interview and criminal check.
I think it would be beneficial to you and me if you would create your own thread and ask these questions.


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KiX
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Unread post by KiX on

liveontheedge wrote:I think the rule says that disclosure is not to be mailed. You must pick it up.
I agree, I did what ticketcombat and other sources recommended, to not put my number on the disclosure request. In court, the crown and I talked about the disclosure (how I did not receive any), and he agreed to adjourn my case. When I was called up the crown already asked the JP for an adjourment, the JP asked why and I mentioned I did not receive disclosure. The crown said disclosure was ready 2 weeks prior to the court date and I did not pick it up, I argued that my mailing address was on the disclosure request so why couldn't the crown atleast mail me a notice or letter asking for my address? JP didn't seem to budge, and said I was responsible for picking it up.

In the end, my case was adjourned to a later date, I'm just not sure if it's to my advantage because the crown did announce to the JP and made a note that disclosure was ready 2 weeks in advance of my 1st court appearance.


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Unread post by blackdog on

my court date is approcahing - sep 3rd and am wondering how things will go down.

1. got into an accident in March 09 and recieved ticket for failing to signal..etc Accident was not my fault but got ticket anyway.

2. went to court to change the June 26 court date due to I could not make the date - changed to Sep 3rd

3. asked for disclosure in April via mail and hand delivered in June

4. court date is Sep 3rd and I have not recieved any disclosure

I have not filed a 4f for non-disclosure in the hopes that the officer or the other party do not show and the whole thing is thrown out

What can I expect when i go to court ?


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Unread post by liveontheedge on

The Crown needs the cop and a witness to show up to testify that you failed to signal in order to have a chance of convicting you.

The witness or the cop might not show up and you have not got disclosure so far, my take is that the Crown would withdraw the charge, however come prepared.


blackdog
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Unread post by blackdog on

liveontheedge wrote:The Crown needs the cop and a witness to show up to testify that you failed to signal in order to have a chance of convicting you.

The witness or the cop might not show up and you have not got disclosure so far, my take is that the Crown would withdraw the charge, however come prepared.
thanks for that - could you tell me how much preperation should I do ? I mean I can tell exactly what happened during the accident. Is there anything else I need to bring with me or research before hand ?


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racer
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Unread post by racer on

One poster reported that there was no notification of disclosure being ready for him, and the JP didn't allow the 4F. So, go to the court again, see if they have the package ready and "forgot" to call you. Just in case.
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Unread post by liveontheedge on

According to info you posted, you were in an accident and the cop came and gave you a ticket. I assume the cop did not see any of your not signaling and he issued the ticket based solely on hearsay of a witness.

If you knew who is the cop's witness, then look for both of them before trial. Under this scenario, if either one of them is not there, don't take the plea bargain (don't say no just say you'll think about it and get back later), don't mention about disclosure you have not received, wait till you are called, the crown may withdraw the charge.

If the Crown does not withdraw the charge then you have a choice of proceeding to trial without disclosure (taking advantage of no witness appeared for the cop, only you who knows the circumstances of your case to make this decision) or ask for or force an adjournment due to no disclosure.

If you put your phone number on the disclosure request and you have not got the call from the Crown's office then I beleive it's the Crown's responsibilty to inform you for picking up the disclosure.

If you did not have the phone number on the disclosure request, then prepare to answer the judge as to why you have not picked up the disclosure assuming the disclosure is ready.

In any case, they might give you the disclosure at trial date and therefore the trial will be adjourned at whose fault depending on how good your argument is. The fault determination is to use in the 11b defence in the future.


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Unread post by blackdog on

had my day in court today.

going into this without disclosure but requested twice

1. Crown tried to get me to take a lesser charge - I refussed

2. Cop and witness showed up

3. wnet to trial and I asked for a motion to stay the matter due to non disclosure. At first the judge seemed a little angry that I did not tell this to the crown. I stated that I honestly did not know. I asked for a stay the crown disagreed but the judge in the end granted me an adjournment!

I was very polite in the courtroom and to the judge. Addressed her as '
your worship' and was always listening and polite.

The idot crown guy had the disclosure with him when I signed in but he did not mention it to me.

I now have the disclosure and I am noticing many errors by the cop.


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Unread post by blackdog on

My 3rd court date is end of October. managed to get 2 adjournments but I have a pretty good feeling that the cop and witness will show for the Oct trial.

I have just recieved disclosure and found numerous errors on the accident report. The cop has mixed up V1 and V2 and is not consistent with the errors. Sometimes he has them correct on the accidnet report then down below where he explains further waht happens he has reversed them. He also has me going north when I was going south.

His own notes appear to be correct however some of them I cannot read.

How do I use the errors on the accident report to my advantage when this goes to trial ? also, should I recquest the notes be typed up before the 3rd court date ?


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Unread post by blackdog on

appreciated if I can get some help on the above.


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Unread post by racer on

Make a huge list of questions, so that every question can be answered from either the notes or the accident report. Have him answer, and then draw attention to the incorrect version, if what he says on the stand is against you.
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"

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Unread post by blackdog on

racer wrote:Make a huge list of questions, so that every question can be answered from either the notes or the accident report. Have him answer, and then draw attention to the incorrect version, if what he says on the stand is against you.
The officers notes make more sense than the accident report. So I need to attack this using the accident report. On that report he has me on the wrong street and going the wrong speed and direction. However, his drawing on the accident report is correct.


the boxes on the accident report state:

v1 = me
r1 = he has me on the wrong road
v1 speed = he has me going 60km/hr - I was going less than 5 km/hr or stopped

he states that v1 was making a left turn going northbound when infact I was making a rightturn going northbound.

v2 = otherdiver
r2 = he has other driver on the wrong road
v2 speed = he has the other driver going 15km/hr, he was doing around 60.

can you give me a sample dialogue from the above facts of how I should state the questions ?

thank you


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racer
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Unread post by racer on

Just try to analyze what the accident report says that is wrong, make a question regarding each point you find, and ask the cop all of them in succession. The questions need to be your own. There are quite a few links pointed to actual recorded court proceedings here, you have to dig them up though. Canlii is an excellent source.
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"

www.OHTA.ca & www.OntarioHighwayTrafficAct.com


blackdog
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Unread post by blackdog on

THANK YOU very much for everyone who helped and advised on this and special thankyou to ticketcombat. My case went to trial despite the Prosecuters many attempts to have me plead guilty to lesser...blah blah..

case went to trial, half way in while the prosecuter was questioning the other driver she recommended to withdraw the charges..not able to proceed because of lack of evidence.

I WON!!


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Unread post by hwybear on

blackdog wrote: case went to trial, half way in while the prosecuter was questioning the other driver she recommended to withdraw the charges..not able to proceed because of lack of evidence.
I WON!!
good for you....

having said that...the other driver is the "key witness" and if that driver can not bring thru enough evidence the case will be tossed regardlesss of police, as the officer was not there to witness the collision.




Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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