I was at a plaza in Markham (GTA) the other day, to pick up some take out for the family. It was raining pretty badly, and the parking lot was full since this was dinner time, so I parked in front of the restaurant behind a row of cars doing like-wise, turned on my emergency flashing blinkers (stupid...), and ran inside to pay for and pick up the food. I was in and out in 30 seconds, but when I came out, I saw a parking enforcement officer standing on the roofed curb near my car (probably because I flashed my blinkers...). As I started to get into my car, he said 'is this your car?', to which I naturally replied, 'yes.' Then he said 'This is a fire route, it's a $200 fine.' I stopped for a moment, looked around the plaza and at the row of cars parked or idling in front of me, but I couldn't see any sign indicating that (perhaps because it was raining so bad and sort of dark). So I just told him that I was sorry and that I am leaving right away. Then he said to me "It's no skin off my back (or something like that), but once I start writing a ticket, it's in..." It was raining so bad, and I was in such a hurry, that I just got inside my car and left. The thing is, after I got home, it occurred to me that he actually didn't serve me with a ticket or fix one to my car windshield. However, I am not sure if he took a photo of the violation and still ended up entering the ticket into the system. So, if I should get a notice of impending conviction in the mail in 2 weeks, can I fight to get the ticket dismissed on these terms?
I was at a plaza in Markham (GTA) the other day, to pick up some take out for the family. It was raining pretty badly, and the parking lot was full since this was dinner time, so I parked in front of the restaurant behind a row of cars doing like-wise, turned on my emergency flashing blinkers (stupid...), and ran inside to pay for and pick up the food. I was in and out in 30 seconds, but when I came out, I saw a parking enforcement officer standing on the roofed curb near my car (probably because I flashed my blinkers...). As I started to get into my car, he said 'is this your car?', to which I naturally replied, 'yes.' Then he said 'This is a fire route, it's a $200 fine.'
I stopped for a moment, looked around the plaza and at the row of cars parked or idling in front of me, but I couldn't see any sign indicating that (perhaps because it was raining so bad and sort of dark). So I just told him that I was sorry and that I am leaving right away. Then he said to me "It's no skin off my back (or something like that), but once I start writing a ticket, it's in..."
It was raining so bad, and I was in such a hurry, that I just got inside my car and left.
The thing is, after I got home, it occurred to me that he actually didn't serve me with a ticket or fix one to my car windshield. However, I am not sure if he took a photo of the violation and still ended up entering the ticket into the system.
So, if I should get a notice of impending conviction in the mail in 2 weeks, can I fight to get the ticket dismissed on these terms?
I'm of the impression that if you drive away before the ticket is handed to you or placed on your car then the ticket has not been served properly and is thus not valid. I think you could argue in court that you were not served properly and the charge would be dismissed.
I'm of the impression that if you drive away before the ticket is handed to you or placed on your car then the ticket has not been served properly and is thus not valid. I think you could argue in court that you were not served properly and the charge would be dismissed.
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... ertificate and notice of parking infraction Service on owner (4) The issuing provincial offences officer may serve the parking infraction notice on the owner of the vehicle identified in the notice, (a) by affixing it to the vehicle in a conspicuous place at the time of the alleged infraction; or (b) by delivering it personally to the person having care and control of the vehicle at the time of the alleged infraction.[/quote]my experience with parking enforcement in Brampton/Mississauga is that they have to affix the ticket onto the vehicle OR serve it to the driver if neither is done, they must cancel the ticket or if it's hand written mark it as "drive away" http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/tor ... le4305320/ you may also have the defence of not actually parking in the fire route http://www.markham.ca/wps/wcm/connect/m ... uote]"Park" or "Parking" means the halting of a vehicle, whether occupied or not, except when halting temporarily for the purpose of and while actually engaged in loading or unloading goods or passengers[/quote]
(4) The issuing provincial offences officer may serve the parking infraction notice on the owner of the vehicle identified in the notice,
(a) by affixing it to the vehicle in a conspicuous place at the time of the alleged infraction; or
(b) by delivering it personally to the person having care and control of the vehicle at the time of the alleged infraction.[/quote]my experience with parking enforcement in Brampton/Mississauga is that they have to affix the ticket onto the vehicle OR serve it to the driver
if neither is done, they must cancel the ticket or if it's hand written mark it as "drive away"
you may also have the defence of not actually parking in the fire route
http://www.markham.ca/wps/wcm/connect/m ... uote]"Park" or "Parking" means the halting of a vehicle, whether occupied or not, except when halting temporarily for the purpose of and while actually engaged in loading or unloading goods or passengers[/quote]
Town of Markham: "Park" or "Parking" means the halting of a vehicle, whether occupied or not, except when halting temporarily for the purpose of and while actually engaged in loading or unloading goods or passengers. Fire Access Routes:: 9 (3) No person shall park a motor vehicle on or along any part of a designated Fire Access Route at any time.
Shorestones wrote:
So, if I should get a notice of impending conviction in the mail in 2 weeks, can I fight to get the ticket dismissed on these terms?
Town of Markham:
"Park" or "Parking" means the halting of a vehicle, whether occupied or not, except when halting temporarily for the purpose of and while actually engaged in loading or unloading goods or passengers.
Fire Access Routes::
9 (3) No person shall park a motor vehicle on or along any part of a designated Fire Access Route at any time.
Thanks for the confirmations. I was not stopped for more than 3 minutes, that I know for sure. I basically just paid and grabbed my food (although I held the door open for a group of people entering the restaurant but that couldn't have taken more than a few seconds). When I came out, he hadn't started writing the ticket yet. It was only when I replied to him as I was getting into the car that he started typing on his pad (although I am guessing he probably took a photo first). If I go to the town hall to appeal this (I guess that's 'First Attendance'?), and speak to the clerk, do they have the power (and might be willing) to dismiss the ticket, or should I not bother to discuss it with the clerk and just request a trial?
Thanks for the confirmations. I was not stopped for more than 3 minutes, that I know for sure. I basically just paid and grabbed my food (although I held the door open for a group of people entering the restaurant but that couldn't have taken more than a few seconds). When I came out, he hadn't started writing the ticket yet. It was only when I replied to him as I was getting into the car that he started typing on his pad (although I am guessing he probably took a photo first).
If I go to the town hall to appeal this (I guess that's 'First Attendance'?), and speak to the clerk, do they have the power (and might be willing) to dismiss the ticket, or should I not bother to discuss it with the clerk and just request a trial?
You already said it was 30 seconds and now you've gone to 3 minutes. Not that it matters to me, but if you take it to trial like you're suggesting, they are going to nit pick your statements. I suggest you have a good game plan because I don't see a valid defense so far. It doesn't matter whether it was raining, you had your blinkers on, there were other cars parked there, you were only running in and out, etc. There is another poster who argues the Markham definition of parking works in your favour. I'd agree to disagree on that argument. There's a difference between a cab driver letting off passengers or an individual/business actively removing goods from the vehicle versus someone who is MIA from the scene so they can pick up their Chinese food or whatever it may be. Whether the town mails you the ticket, I couldn't tell you to be honest. There are plenty of cities and towns that will simply mail you your ticket, and in some cases, charge you a fee for the process. If it was me, i'd simply attend the first attendance meeting and see if I could get it reduced to something more wallet friendly. First Attendance meetings are not a trial. They are not there to go over facts and reach a ruling. It's just a meeting to see if they can reach a plea deal in return for your guilt. It's not going to do anything to your insurance, so if I was offered your average $40 parking ticket, i'd probably just leave it at that and move on.
Shorestones wrote:
Thanks for the confirmations. I was not stopped for more than 3 minutes
You already said it was 30 seconds and now you've gone to 3 minutes. Not that it matters to me, but if you take it to trial like you're suggesting, they are going to nit pick your statements.
Shorestones wrote:
If I go to the town hall to appeal this (I guess that's 'First Attendance'?), and speak to the clerk, do they have the power (and might be willing) to dismiss the ticket, or should I not bother to discuss it with the clerk and just request a trial?
I suggest you have a good game plan because I don't see a valid defense so far. It doesn't matter whether it was raining, you had your blinkers on, there were other cars parked there, you were only running in and out, etc.
There is another poster who argues the Markham definition of parking works in your favour. I'd agree to disagree on that argument. There's a difference between a cab driver letting off passengers or an individual/business actively removing goods from the vehicle versus someone who is MIA from the scene so they can pick up their Chinese food or whatever it may be.
Whether the town mails you the ticket, I couldn't tell you to be honest. There are plenty of cities and towns that will simply mail you your ticket, and in some cases, charge you a fee for the process.
If it was me, i'd simply attend the first attendance meeting and see if I could get it reduced to something more wallet friendly. First Attendance meetings are not a trial. They are not there to go over facts and reach a ruling. It's just a meeting to see if they can reach a plea deal in return for your guilt. It's not going to do anything to your insurance, so if I was offered your average $40 parking ticket, i'd probably just leave it at that and move on.
I didn't say I was there for 3 minutes, I said it was not more than 3 minutes (so there was no '3 minute grace period'). But you are right, I need to get my facts straight. I am also not saying I am proud of this or faulting anyone except myself for getting a $200 fine. I honestly didn't know it was a 'fire route' to park along the curb at this plaza (which I only been to a couple of times) where all the 'goods/passenger unloading' goes on, even if people habitually do this. I realize that's not a valid 'excuse' either. But I get the feeling that the parking enforcement officer could have just let me off with a warning given the circumstances and time frame--and I may very well not receive a notice in the mail--although what he said to me as I got into the car suggests he was going to write the ticket. But how low can the clerk reduce the fine to? $20? I doubt they'd reduce a $200 fine to even $40. Anyone tried?
I didn't say I was there for 3 minutes, I said it was not more than 3 minutes (so there was no '3 minute grace period'). But you are right, I need to get my facts straight. I am also not saying I am proud of this or faulting anyone except myself for getting a $200 fine. I honestly didn't know it was a 'fire route' to park along the curb at this plaza (which I only been to a couple of times) where all the 'goods/passenger unloading' goes on, even if people habitually do this. I realize that's not a valid 'excuse' either. But I get the feeling that the parking enforcement officer could have just let me off with a warning given the circumstances and time frame--and I may very well not receive a notice in the mail--although what he said to me as I got into the car suggests he was going to write the ticket.
But how low can the clerk reduce the fine to? $20? I doubt they'd reduce a $200 fine to even $40. Anyone tried?
I mentioned there 3 minute rule. The ticket guy would hide in either the doorway or the bushes. I read the ticket it said he observed me there for over 3 minutes. Markham had a maybe rule to reduce the price. It was a pain all the phone calls and such. The did offer a lower price . Cheers viper1
I mentioned there 3 minute rule. The ticket guy would hide in either the doorway or the bushes. I read the ticket it said
he observed me there for over 3 minutes. Markham had a maybe rule to reduce the price. It was a pain all the
phone calls and such.
The did offer a lower price .
Cheers
viper1
"hang onto your chair when reading my posts
use at your own risk"
Wouldn't simply mailing the ticket violate Sections 15 (4) and 15(5) of the Provincial Offences Act? If they don't serve you at the time of the infraction I thought they had to go by way of Part 3 of the POA and swear an information before a Justice of the Peace and have them issue a long form summons which then had to be served to the defendant in person. http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... e.htm#BK20 Service on owner (4) The issuing provincial offences officer may serve the parking infraction notice on the owner of the vehicle identified in the notice, (a) by affixing it to the vehicle in a conspicuous place at the time of the alleged infraction; or (b) by delivering it personally to the person having care and control of the vehicle at the time of the alleged infraction. Service on operator (5) The issuing provincial offences officer may serve the parking infraction notice on the operator of a vehicle by delivering it to the operator personally at the time of the alleged infraction.
bend wrote:
Whether the town mails you the ticket, I couldn't tell you to be honest. There are plenty of cities and towns that will simply mail you your ticket, and in some cases, charge you a fee for the process.
Wouldn't simply mailing the ticket violate Sections 15 (4) and 15(5) of the Provincial Offences Act? If they don't serve you at the time of the infraction I thought they had to go by way of Part 3 of the POA and swear an information before a Justice of the Peace and have them issue a long form summons which then had to be served to the defendant in person.
(4) The issuing provincial offences officer may serve the parking infraction notice on the owner of the vehicle identified in the notice,
(a) by affixing it to the vehicle in a conspicuous place at the time of the alleged infraction; or
(b) by delivering it personally to the person having care and control of the vehicle at the time of the alleged infraction.
Service on operator
(5) The issuing provincial offences officer may serve the parking infraction notice on the operator of a vehicle by delivering it to the operator personally at the time of the alleged infraction.
50% off would most likely be the prosecution's plea-deal; you could maybe get it even lower if you show financial hardship to the Justice of Peace (ie: unemployed, kids, homeless, welfare)
Shorestones wrote:
But how low can the clerk reduce the fine to? $20? I doubt they'd reduce a $200 fine to even $40. Anyone tried?
50% off would most likely be the prosecution's plea-deal; you could maybe get it even lower if you show financial hardship to the Justice of Peace (ie: unemployed, kids, homeless, welfare)
Thanks for all the advice. My feeling right now is that if I can get it reduced to $40 by the clerk, I will just pay it. Otherwise, I am taking it to trial and fighting it, even if I end up losing and have to pay a higher amount or the full amount. Not that I am hoping to get more parking tickets, but the experience will do me good.
Thanks for all the advice. My feeling right now is that if I can get it reduced to $40 by the clerk, I will just pay it. Otherwise, I am taking it to trial and fighting it, even if I end up losing and have to pay a higher amount or the full amount. Not that I am hoping to get more parking tickets, but the experience will do me good.
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