Improper Left turn on oneway street

smallfive
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Improper Left turn on oneway street

Unread post by smallfive on

I was driving west on a oneway street and stayed on the left turn lane.
There was a small street sweeper moving very slow on the crosswalk and I drove pass it and made a left turn. Then at the end of the block a policeman on a bike came out and stop my car and then gave me a ticket for improper left turn.

I was driving on the turning lane and I check to see if I have enough time and space to turn without hitting the people crossing the street. Do I have to wait for all people to and the sweeper to completely finish crossing before I can turn? (The sweeper was moving slower than the people crossing the street)

If I go to court, do I need to hire someone to fight it? And do any of you think I have a chance of winning?


David Chatten
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Unread post by David Chatten on

You should challenge every offence notice an officer gives you. I am not saying that always means pleading not guilty and going to trial, but at least try to minimize the damage to yourself

Can you win? Yes it is possible if you craft a proper defence. I would avoid fighting a case like this yourself, because if you testify, a prosecutor while cross examining you, may be able to find significant weaknesses in your case. Also some people find it challenging to cross-examine a experienced police officer. A trained agent would be able to attend, and you may not be required to attend at all. If your not in court, it is more difficult for the prosecutor to prove your identity.

To prove your innocence in this type of case, based on you message, you may want to establish that the pedestrians and sweeper were a greater distance away than what the officer may have been able to judge. You or your agent would want to obtain the disclosure package to find out what the officer is say about distance, if anything.

You should try to write everything down that you can remember, such as what you said to the officer, what the officer said to you. Did the people you supposedly cut off stop and provide a witness statement to the officer? A worker using a street cleaning machine on a street should be simple to track down. Does he/she feel you cut them off?

What ever you do, do not just pay the fine on the face of the ticket. Talk to agent about it. Most offer a free consultation and they could provide you options that you may not have known about.


smallfive
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Unread post by smallfive on

Thank you for the reply.
When the police pull me over, he say "didn't you see that guy pull up right next to you." and I reply that he waved me to pass him."
Then he say, "if he wave you to go thru a red light, would you?"
I say no... then after that he took my drivers licence and walk away and then later came back with a ticket.
I was wondering what he wrote in his book.
Can I get a disclosure package before I decide to challenge or not?
I don't think I can track down the sweeper. It was the 1st time I seen a sweeper on that street.
Are all agents the same? or I should ask any agent that offer free consulting?
Sorry for asking so many questions. Your info is very much appreciated


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Unread post by David Chatten on

Unfortunately, not all agents are the same. Try to find a Paralegal that is able to expain your options in a way YOU understand, not using confusing word in the way he or she speaks.

As far as tracking down the street sweeper, as you mentioned it is the first time you saw one on the street(at least this year). The municipality where you were charged can help you with this, but you must ask carefully.

You may wish to request a first attendance meeting. To do this, you enter a not guilty plea by filing out the correct option on the back of your offence notice. Put a x in the box that says you are pleading not guilty and one in the box that says you wish to challenge the officers evidence.

You should request disclosure at the time you file your ticket. Make photocopies of what you are submitting, and if they will, ask the clerk to stamped "filed" and the date on your copies(Used later to prove you have requested, but not yet rec'd, disclosure from the crown. Always make good notes to help remind you of the event details and any conversations you may have with the police/prosecutor. After going over the discosure package, if there is no chance of you winning the case, you may wish to change your plea to guilty and to to lower the fine.

http://www.myhamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/8 ... ure_V2.pdf

Above is a link to a SAMPLE disclosure request form.


smallfive
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Unread post by smallfive on

Thank you very much for the rely.
The sweeper was park infront of a pizza shop.... and later cross the street. Maybe he was there buying lunch only. Will the city actually tells people who was working on the street on that day?

My ticket is from Toronto. Will the form be similar to your sample one?
Do I have to buy that disclosure form in advance or it can be downloaded?

When I go enter a not guilty plea. Do I have to submit any evidence that I have? or Just submit the ticket with not guilty plea and request a disclosure package?

How much would be the cost if I ask an agent to do it for me?


David Chatten
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Unread post by David Chatten on

Print Sample form and make one for yourself(Keep it on file in case you need one again). You can find the court address on the back of your offence notice. It is recommended that you submit your disclosure request as soon as you realize you would like disclosure, but only after you have signed your ticket as not guilty and filed it with the court.

I have heard of some agents in the G.T.A. area that would handle that type of charge for around $200.00. In Hastings County, most agent fees are $250.00 and up. If a trial is involved, we usually charge a higher fee as a lot more preparation work is required. Always ask what you will be receiving for the amount you are paying. Always make sure you understand what is going on, and if you do not, be sure to get clarification as soon as possible. Call my office, I would be happy to discuss your case with you breifly. 1-888-668-9267


smallfive
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Unread post by smallfive on

Thanks for the info.
Before I decide what to do. I have a few more questions.
When the police give a ticket. Don't they have to tell you the reason and what is my rights in regards to the ticket?
(The police never told me that I'm getting a ticket, he just walk away and came back and gave me 2 piece of paper and he leave. Then I notice the ticket was for a improper left turn)

If I attend the first meeting. Should I tell or/and give evidence to him?
If it cannot be settle at that time, wouldn't he later use my evidence and turn it against me in the trial?


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Unread post by David Chatten on

As long as the documents are correct, the charge would stick. Also, the officer is not required to inform a driver of the demerit points for the charge, or any other ministry sanctions. A Charter of Rights issue could be raised, but I haven't seen it in my area yet.

Any thing you discuss in an attempt to resolve you case with the prosecutor should not be used against you. Although not required in Ontario, you may wish to advise the prosecutor that your discussion will be "Off The Record".

Keep us posted on how you make out with your situation.


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Unread post by Bookm on

It may be different for each Prosecutor. I know the last one I dealt with definitely WOULD use anything I said against me (if it went to trial). I asked and he told me so.

My co-worker got a ticket on which she was cited the wrong charge. She went to the Crown to have it dismissed and made the mistake of telling him what the ACTUAL violation was. He promptly threatened to submit a new Part III if she didn't accept his "generous" plea bargain. If she had just gone to trial on the original charge, it would have been easily won.

Personally, I would never offer incriminating evidence to the Crown.


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Unread post by Reflections on

Bookm wrote:It may be different for each Prosecutor. I know the last one I dealt with definitely WOULD use anything I said against me (if it went to trial). I asked and he told me so.

My co-worker got a ticket on which she was cited the wrong charge. She went to the Crown to have it dismissed and made the mistake of telling him what the ACTUAL violation was. He promptly threatened to submit a new Part III if she didn't accept his "generous" plea bargain. If she had just gone to trial on the original charge, it would have been easily won.

Personally, I would never offer incriminating evidence to the Crown.
Unfortuately, this is easier said then done.
http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com


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Unread post by hwybear on

David Chatten wrote:As . Also, the officer is not required to inform a driver of the demerit points for the charge, or any other ministry sanctions.
I will never tell anyone how many demerit points are attached to a offence, even if asked at roadside. I'm not being a @$$, but if I was to have a brain fart sometime, I don't want to mislead the driver. I always tell them to contact the MTO.

I will always tell the driver what the offence is for, but I will not go into evidence at roadside, that is what court is for. Also,I always tell the driver about the options on the offence notice, whether they listen or not, that is up to them!
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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Unread post by smallfive on

I will always tell the driver what the offence is for, but I will not go into evidence at roadside, that is what court is for. Also,I always tell the driver about the options on the offence notice, whether they listen or not, that is up to them!
Since I was not told what the ticket was for and what are my options.
Is that mean I have a chance of winning?

I drive on this same street everyday and I see many police cars making the same turn as me. The highway act does not say I have to wait until the crosswalk is completely empty before I can make a turn. Also, why is the car before me and after me that made the turn didn't get the ticket. So, I want to make sure what is the proper way to make a left turn.
Last edited by smallfive on Sun May 04, 2008 11:19 am, edited 2 times in total.


smallfive
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Unread post by smallfive on

Any thing you discuss in an attempt to resolve you case with the prosecutor should not be used against you. Although not required in Ontario, you may wish to advise the prosecutor that your discussion will be "Off The Record".


There is No first meeting for my ticket.
Guess that mean they think I will loss that is why I don't get one.

Oh, I was told that I only request for disclosure after I get a court date.

Guess just have to wait now to see what the reason was for the ticket before I can plan for a defense.

Thanks everyone for the info.


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Unread post by hwybear on

smallfive wrote:Also, why is the car before me and after me that made the turn didn't get the ticket.
That is kinda like...why didn't you get that vehicle for speeding. Can only stop one at once. Maybe was doing notes, finished, looked up and saw your vehicle.....didn't see the 1st one, and your vehicle to that officer might be the first one.....something like a group of cars speeding....I'll either take out the very first OR the very last one! it's a choice!
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


smallfive
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Unread post by smallfive on

hwybear wrote:
smallfive wrote:Also, why is the car before me and after me that made the turn didn't get the ticket.
That is kinda like...why didn't you get that vehicle for speeding. Can only stop one at once. Maybe was doing notes, finished, looked up and saw your vehicle.....didn't see the 1st one, and your vehicle to that officer might be the first one.....something like a group of cars speeding....I'll either take out the very first OR the very last one! it's a choice
He was standing in the lane near the sidewalk and was not doing any notes.(He have no notepad in his hands and just staring at cars turning) The 1st car made a turn into the left lane and drove away. (he was very far away from the left lane, it is impossible for him to stop any cars that turned into the left lane and go straight) Because I have to turn right immediately after the left turn and he was blocking the road. So I have no choice but to drive very slow towards him and then he stop me.






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