I'm writing for myself this time. This morning, I was on the WB 407 on my way to school. For about 15 km, I was following an OPP SUV in the left lane. The officer was generally driving between 120 and 125, and I made sure to keep a safe distance. Before I go any further, yes, I know I was speeding, and I know that any testimony I may give if I wind up in court will confirm I was speeding. I do not expect to beat the speeding charge (as described below). As we neared the Vaughan-Brampton border, the officer accelerated. I did NOT accelerate to keep pace. He then quickly slowed down; in the brief moment it took me to react, I was close to him before backing off. He then switched to the centre lane and I passed him at about 100. He put on his lights and got behind me. I found a safe spot to pull over. He came up the right side and yelled into the car, "The speed limit here is 100. You were doing 135. And you were right on my bumper, so I'm also going to give you a ticket for following too closely. I need to see your licence, registration and insurance." Having paid attention to the many posts here, I said nothing. My wallet was on the back seat in my backpack. As I reached for it, I explained that I was getting my licence out of my backpack. I took it out and handed it to the officer. He walked back to his SUV as I reached for the glove compartment to give him the registration and insurance. Needless to say, I had a vision of him giving me tickets for failing to provide registration and failing to provide insurance. I knew exactly where they both were and was simply reaching for them when he left. He came back within just a few minutes. He handed me two electronic tickets and said something to the effect of, "This is what I'm alleging. You have two weeks to decide what you want to do." Before I could even straighten the pages, he was in his SUV and gone. Thankfully, the registration and insurance weren't an issue (I had them both in my hand when he came back, just in case). He gave me two tickets, one for 135 in a 100 zone contrary to s. 128(1) of the HTA ($265 all-in) and one for Follow too Closely contrary to s. 158(1) ($110 all-in). There are no mistakes on the tickets. If it weren't for the Follow too Closely ticket, I'd try to get the speeding reduced to 115 so there would be no points. The Crown isn't about to withdraw one charge and reduce the other, so my options are limited. Obviously, I have a few questions. Does the fact that the officer was driving at a high rate of speed when not pursuing anyone matter? I've heard widely differing opinions as to what a police officer can and cannot do while simply driving or patrolling. The wording of subsection 158(1) is rather vague: The driver of a motor vehicle or street car shall not follow another vehicle or street car more closely than is reasonable and prudent having due regard for the speed of the vehicle and the traffic on and the conditions of the highway. What constitues reasonable? Obviously, when two vehicles are driving at approximately the same speed and the vehicle in front slows down, the vehicle behind will momentarily move closer until the driver of the trailing vehicle also slows down. Is there such a thing as rear-facing vehicle-mounted radar? Or would the officer be relying on his speedometer? For the officers in our community: how long would it typically take you to complete your typed electronic notes in a situation like this? I type extremely quickly, but I don't think even I could have possibly typed detailed notes in the time the officer was in his SUV. Do I have any chance of challenging what would likely be an assertion that he'd typed his notes at the time he pulled me over? The tickets show that the offences were allegedly committed in the City of Vaughan and that the Newmarket court has jurisdiction. I'm usually extremely careful to note fine details, but I was off my game this morning...probably because sitting on the shoulder was not my idea of fun while I was trying to get to school. If we'd actually crossed into Brampton (Peel Region), would that matter? I'll probably think of more, but that's my Monday morning dilemma.
What the officer does is very relevant. As I posted in another thread I won a speeding case because I absolutely shredded the officer's character. When I asked him if he ever fabricated evidence or committed perjury I caught him in a lie about lying in another case that had nothing to do with mine. I constantly accused him of being a liar in my own testimony. The best and only real defense is acharacter assassination. This is because the playing field is rigged in the officer's favor and their character is held in way higher regard than it deserves. People are missing the point about an officer going 135km/hr without his lights on trying to pace someone in his rear view. It might be legal but it is a dumbass move that shows severely impaired judgment and a disregard for everyone else's safety. Not only that he isn't trained to do that, it would be frowned upon by most people who take public safety seriously, and the officer can't properly assess speed in that kind of situation on top of it all. The JP has to be convinced of both the officer's ability to make a speed observation/estimation and of his sound judgment/character. His actions, while legal, make him look really bad as sole witness and accuser.
What the officer does is very relevant. As I posted in another thread I won a speeding case because I absolutely shredded the officer's character. When I asked him if he ever fabricated evidence or committed perjury I caught him in a lie about lying in another case that had nothing to do with mine.
I constantly accused him of being a liar in my own testimony. The best and only real defense is acharacter assassination. This is because the playing field is rigged in the officer's favor and their character is held in way higher regard than it deserves.
People are missing the point about an officer going 135km/hr without his lights on trying to pace someone in his rear view. It might be legal but it is a dumbass move that shows severely impaired judgment and a disregard for everyone else's safety. Not only that he isn't trained to do that, it would be frowned upon by most people who take public safety seriously, and the officer can't properly assess speed in that kind of situation on top of it all.
The JP has to be convinced of both the officer's ability to make a speed observation/estimation and of his sound judgment/character. His actions, while legal, make him look really bad as sole witness and accuser.
Actually you didn't win your case because of that. The appeal never went ahead when Crown decided not to proceed. Both the trial judge and the pre-appeal judge thought there was a case against you. There can be many reasons why Crown decides not to go ahead with a case but your assertions that a judge said that the officer's actions were relevant to the finding of guilt in your actions is simply not borne out by the facts that you have presented.
Actually you didn't win your case because of that. The appeal never went ahead when Crown decided not to proceed. Both the trial judge and the pre-appeal judge thought there was a case against you. There can be many reasons why Crown decides not to go ahead with a case but your assertions that a judge said that the officer's actions were relevant to the finding of guilt in your actions is simply not borne out by the facts that you have presented.
Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !
I agree that it sucks that I can't use the fact the officer was driving 135 against him, but it is what it is. I'll have to see what's in the disclosure before I decide what to do.
I agree that it sucks that I can't use the fact the officer was driving 135 against him, but it is what it is. I'll have to see what's in the disclosure before I decide what to do.
Argyll, Your point that you can't trash the officer's judgment and character is completely untrue. The JP allowed me to read the perjury case against him in court and to repeatedly trash him as a liar and evidence fabricator when I took the stand. The prosecutor wasn't able to stop me as I was presenting testimony that spoke to the character of the officer which a JP/ judge has to account for in his decision. Why do you think the manager of prosecutions for Waterloo dropped the charges after the case? ( In the end the why doesn't matter only that he did.) He stated the JP erred in his conclusion of facts which was the basis of my appeal. He called it a WD case and stated there was reasonable doubt. The WD case if I remember correctly is actually a rape case where the guidelines for a conviction are the judge can't just believe/think the defendant is guilty he has to have no reason to doubt the accuser which includes his character. Slamming the officer in the way I indicated should be done creates doubt in the officer's judgment, ability to make the visual observation and motivation for issuing a ticket if the Offence was way less egregious than what the officer did himself.
Argyll,
Your point that you can't trash the officer's judgment and character is completely untrue.
The JP allowed me to read the perjury case against him in court and to repeatedly trash him as a liar and evidence fabricator when I took the stand. The prosecutor wasn't able to stop me as I was presenting testimony that spoke to the character of the officer which a JP/ judge has to account for in his decision.
Why do you think the manager of prosecutions for Waterloo dropped the charges after the case? ( In the end the why doesn't matter only that he did.) He stated the JP erred in his conclusion of facts which was the basis of my appeal. He called it a WD case and stated there was reasonable doubt. The WD case if I remember correctly is actually a rape case where the guidelines for a conviction are the judge can't just believe/think the defendant is guilty he has to have no reason to doubt the accuser which includes his character.
Slamming the officer in the way I indicated should be done creates doubt in the officer's judgment, ability to make the visual observation and motivation for issuing a ticket if the Offence was way less egregious than what the officer did himself.
To me it's more of a honey-versus-vinegar thing. If I need to show that an officer may have erred, mistaken a fact, etc., I'd rather do so by asking a series of questions that bring into doubt the reliability of the evidence than by slamming the officer personally.
To me it's more of a honey-versus-vinegar thing. If I need to show that an officer may have erred, mistaken a fact, etc., I'd rather do so by asking a series of questions that bring into doubt the reliability of the evidence than by slamming the officer personally.
The JP allowed you to read it because citizen's defending themselves are given a large amount of latitude due to lack of legal training. It would not have been considered by the JP because you did not have copies to submit as required. The prosecutor probably didn't stop you because why should he ? He can let you rant on in the full knowledge that what you said is not going to be considered. He was probably reviewing the notes of the next case to cone up. I speak having been a court officer and acted as crown counsel in JP court and criminal code show cause bearings. I'm afraid that you are a perfect example of why all court staff sigh deeply when people defend themselves: they know that there will be a lot of words, allegations of evil police officers, demands for people to lose their jobs and little substance. But you will disagree with all of this and continue with your rant about how all police officers are liars and JPs corrupt. I would pay to come and watch you at work in the courtroom. I wish you a peaceful life.
The JP allowed you to read it because citizen's defending themselves are given a large amount of latitude due to lack of legal training. It would not have been considered by the JP because you did not have copies to submit as required. The prosecutor probably didn't stop you because why should he ? He can let you rant on in the full knowledge that what you said is not going to be considered. He was probably reviewing the notes of the next case to cone up.
I speak having been a court officer and acted as crown counsel in JP court and criminal code show cause bearings. I'm afraid that you are a perfect example of why all court staff sigh deeply when people defend themselves: they know that there will be a lot of words, allegations of evil police officers, demands for people to lose their jobs and little substance.
But you will disagree with all of this and continue with your rant about how all police officers are liars and JPs corrupt. I would pay to come and watch you at work in the courtroom.
I wish you a peaceful life.
Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !
You keep missing the point badly Argyll. The manager of prosecutions didn't just decide to not try the appeal case because he is a nice guy or felt sorry for a raving lunatic as your logic would have us believe. He dropped the case as the Senior prosecutor because he couldn't convict based on how I portrayed the officer and his evidence. You wish me a peaceful life, huh? Officer's never lie, right?
You keep missing the point badly Argyll. The manager of prosecutions didn't just decide to not try the appeal case because he is a nice guy or felt sorry for a raving lunatic as your logic would have us believe. He dropped the case as the Senior prosecutor because he couldn't convict based on how I portrayed the officer and his evidence.
You wish me a peaceful life, huh? Officer's never lie, right?
I wish everyone a peaceful life. Absolutely no word of a lie. You need to get that massive chip off your shoulder. We disagree but what's wrong with that. I don't know you, you don't know me. Why would I not wish you a happy life?
I wish everyone a peaceful life. Absolutely no word of a lie. You need to get that massive chip off your shoulder. We disagree but what's wrong with that. I don't know you, you don't know me. Why would I not wish you a happy life?
Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !
Zatota, The first appeal I had I lost. I proved mathematically that the officer's observations severely contradicted the radar gun reading. The judge took over 3 hours to deliberate but stated the reason I lost was because I didn't take the stand to declare my innocence. I stated math is the ultimate proof basically and therefore didnt need to testify but the judge wouldn't budge and stated I needed to take the stand. The system is very rigged as you probably know. It is meant to convict and collect tax revenues under the guise of Public Safety. You will have to take the stand and either state you didn't know what speed you were doing and keeping up with traffic in a safe manner or testify you weren't speeding (much better option). You will then have to create a massive amount of doubt in the officer and you can't do that by being nice. While you have the presumption of innocence and reasonable doubt on your side according to law you really don't and the JP/judge wants to convict you since it makes his life easier and he won't be criticized by his peers. To win you have to make everything about the officer look bad. If he looks good you don't win because he is going to say he observed you doing 135km/hr and the fact that his dimmer rear view didn't come on could just mean he wasnt giving it any thought or didn't have on.
Zatota,
The first appeal I had I lost. I proved mathematically that the officer's observations severely contradicted the radar gun reading. The judge took over 3 hours to deliberate but stated the reason I lost was because I didn't take the stand to declare my innocence. I stated math is the ultimate proof basically and therefore didnt need to testify
but the judge wouldn't budge and stated I needed to take the stand.
The system is very rigged as you probably know. It is meant to convict and collect tax revenues under the guise of Public Safety.
You will have to take the stand and either state you didn't know what speed you were doing and keeping up with traffic in a safe manner or testify you weren't speeding (much better option). You will then have to create a massive amount of doubt in the officer and you can't do that by being nice. While you have the presumption of innocence and reasonable doubt on your side according to law you really don't and the JP/judge wants to convict you since it makes his life easier and he won't be criticized by his peers. To win you have to make everything about the officer look bad. If he looks good you don't win because he is going to say he observed you doing 135km/hr and the fact that his dimmer rear view didn't come on could just mean he wasnt giving it any thought or didn't have on.
I'm giving good advice. To adequately prepare for a trial one should realize what they are up against. Even if you look on this website most people that have radar gun equipment logos or are former police officers arent sympathetic to your viewpoint. No matter the situation they deep down want you to lose and will look for arguments to confirm your guilt and their personal bias rather than your innocence. This is the same mentality you will find in court (actually maybe more unfortunately) even though that mindset is the complete opposite of what justice needs to be. As logical and as damning as your arguments appear to the outside world, especially if you work in a highly mathematic or scientific environment, you will get resistance. I brought Google GPS evidence to court and the prosecutor whined so badly about it being unproven. I had to fight hard for it to be admissible even though every day people, including probably the prosecutor and JP, use GPS technology and believe in its accuracy. Again, I brought a court case showing another judge had ruled the sole witness/officer an evidence fabricator and the JP refused to dismiss the case because I didn't have the full printout and wouldn't look it up on his computer. That's another piece of advice: bring 3 printouts of everything you plan to use in court. You really have to think of a lot of ways to disprove or cast doubt on the officer and his testimony and hope you can gain traction on a few arguments. Hammer down on each point you make because half the time the JP is trying to summarize his guilty conclusion which is his zone of comfort if not personal bias. I am also fairly sure you need to take the stand and declare your innocence, if you can, to realistically win. Then in your conclusion you really have to list multiple reasons why there is sufficient reason to doubt the officer and his testimony, stress your innocence and remind JP the presumption of innocence is yours and you have provided reasonable doubt which means he can't convict. If you can do that really well the JP will be pissed and declare a long recess so he can find some rule of law to hang you on and toss the idea of just how bad a guilty verdict that he wants will make him look. However, in the end, contradicting evidence and rEason able doubt is your friend and the JP can't foolishly just back the officer if you have made the officer look extremely incompetent or untrustworthy.
I'm giving good advice. To adequately prepare for a trial one should realize what they are up against.
Even if you look on this website most people that have radar gun equipment logos or are former police officers arent sympathetic to your viewpoint. No matter the situation they deep down want you to lose and will look for arguments to confirm your guilt and their personal bias rather than your innocence. This is the same mentality you will find in court (actually maybe more unfortunately) even though that mindset is the complete opposite of what justice needs to be.
As logical and as damning as your arguments appear to the outside world, especially if you work in a highly mathematic or scientific environment, you will get resistance. I brought Google GPS evidence to court and the prosecutor whined so badly about it being unproven. I had to fight hard for it to be admissible even though every day people, including probably the prosecutor and JP, use GPS technology and believe in its accuracy. Again, I brought a court case showing another judge had ruled the sole witness/officer an evidence fabricator and the JP refused to dismiss the case because I didn't have the full printout and wouldn't look it up on his computer. That's another piece of advice: bring 3 printouts of everything you plan to use in court.
You really have to think of a lot of ways to disprove or cast doubt on the officer and his testimony and hope you can gain traction on a few arguments. Hammer down on each point you make because half the time the JP is trying to summarize his guilty conclusion which is his zone of comfort if not personal bias. I am also fairly sure you need to take the stand and declare your innocence, if you can, to realistically win. Then in your conclusion you really have to list multiple reasons why there is sufficient reason to doubt the officer and his testimony, stress your innocence and remind JP the presumption of innocence is yours and you have provided reasonable doubt which means he can't convict. If you can do that really well the JP will be pissed and declare a long recess so he can find some rule of law to hang you on and toss the idea of just how bad a guilty verdict that he wants will make him look. However, in the end, contradicting evidence and rEason able doubt is your friend and the JP can't foolishly just back the officer if you have made the officer look extremely incompetent or untrustworthy.
Some of what you say makes sense however it is clouded by your ever present chip. I don't care if you win or lose. I didn't even care when I was the charging officer. My job was to present the facts as I saw them. If they weren't enough to convict in the eyes of the court then so be it - no skin off my nose. The JP refused to accept your case law because you didn't present it in the required manner. It's not advise to bring 3 copies, it is a requirement which you failed to follow. The only person to blame is you but accepting of any blame doesn't seem to be in your make up. JPs are not looking to convict - in fact quite the contrary from what I have seen in court and I've been in court for many many more hours than you I would guess. By all means fight your tickets and try to cast doubt on the crown's evidence - that is what the trial process is for. What is tiresome are your repeated and unsubstantiated claims that all police officers lie and all judges will do anything to convict. Your assertions simply aren't true. Defend your case(s) and cast doubt on the evidence from the other side but lighten up on the conspiracy theories - you'll give yourself an aneurism. Oops there I go looking out for you again.
Some of what you say makes sense however it is clouded by your ever present chip.
I don't care if you win or lose. I didn't even care when I was the charging officer. My job was to present the facts as I saw them. If they weren't enough to convict in the eyes of the court then so be it - no skin off my nose.
The JP refused to accept your case law because you didn't present it in the required manner. It's not advise to bring 3 copies, it is a requirement which you failed to follow. The only person to blame is you but accepting of any blame doesn't seem to be in your make up.
JPs are not looking to convict - in fact quite the contrary from what I have seen in court and I've been in court for many many more hours than you I would guess.
By all means fight your tickets and try to cast doubt on the crown's evidence - that is what the trial process is for. What is tiresome are your repeated and unsubstantiated claims that all police officers lie and all judges will do anything to convict. Your assertions simply aren't true. Defend your case(s) and cast doubt on the evidence from the other side but lighten up on the conspiracy theories - you'll give yourself an aneurism. Oops there I go looking out for you again.
Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !
In reality Argyll, as it relates to bias, we are both very biased. However, I am upfront about mine. I don't wish personal harm to befall officers but I don't wish them a nice day or a peaceful life so that I can look objective or to irritate them whatever the case may be. I could go on and on but believe it or not I don't really want to as I find the whole justice process to be extremely aggravating and I would probably pay for most tickets if it wasn't for the money grubbing insurance companies that come next to take their cut. Why don't we get back on track and utilize your objective expertise? What is the best defense here? Does an officer have training to make the visual observations he did in the situation he did? What are some problems with the case the officer will have to make? What do you make of the lack of disclosure? With my thread that is closed tell me what you know about child witnesses and the obstacles encountered when their testimony contradicts an officer? Have you seen a successful defence utilizing a family witness in the car? What will the prosecutor try to do when my daughter states she clearly remembers me putting on my seatbelt? How will he try to stop her from becoming a witness and what steps do I have to follow to make sure he can'T block her as a witness and her testimony is heard?
In reality Argyll, as it relates to bias, we are both very biased. However, I am upfront about mine. I don't wish personal harm to befall officers but I don't wish them a nice day or a peaceful life so that I can look objective or to irritate them whatever the case may be.
I could go on and on but believe it or not I don't really want to as I find the whole justice process to be extremely aggravating and I would probably pay for most tickets if it wasn't for the money grubbing insurance companies that come next to take their cut.
Why don't we get back on track and utilize your objective expertise? What is the best defense here? Does an officer have training to make the visual observations he did in the situation he did? What are some problems with the case the officer will have to make? What do you make of the lack of disclosure?
With my thread that is closed tell me what you know about child witnesses and the obstacles encountered when their testimony contradicts an officer? Have you seen a successful defence utilizing a family witness in the car? What will the prosecutor try to do when my daughter states she clearly remembers me putting on my seatbelt? How will he try to stop her from becoming a witness and what steps do I have to follow to make sure he can'T block her as a witness and her testimony is heard?
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