Hello, The other day I got a following too closely ticket while on the 401. Going through this certain region in Mississauga there is always traffic but this day it wasn't too bad. I was traveling roughly 80 km/h as the pace of traffic was a bit slower. The driver in front of me was a good 10 car lengths away when all of a sudden she was stopped on the highway because of traffic. I was behind her and for whatever reason couldn't stop in time and just barely clipped her rear fender leaving a small dent. The OPP officer who arrived on scene told me he could have given me a careless driving ticket (lol) but said I was a "good kid" and gave me a following too closely ticket instead, even though that wasn't the case. Is there anything I can do about this and get the charges dropped in court? ALSO, as I was stopped after hitting the car in front of me, 2 seconds later the vehicle traveling behind me hit me and squeezed between me and the center barrier and cause almost $8 000 worth of damage! She received to charge or ticket whatsoever. If anyone has any input I would really appreciate it!
Hello,
The other day I got a following too closely ticket while on the 401. Going through this certain region in Mississauga there is always traffic but this day it wasn't too bad. I was traveling roughly 80 km/h as the pace of traffic was a bit slower. The driver in front of me was a good 10 car lengths away when all of a sudden she was stopped on the highway because of traffic. I was behind her and for whatever reason couldn't stop in time and just barely clipped her rear fender leaving a small dent. The OPP officer who arrived on scene told me he could have given me a careless driving ticket (lol) but said I was a "good kid" and gave me a following too closely ticket instead, even though that wasn't the case.
Is there anything I can do about this and get the charges dropped in court?
ALSO, as I was stopped after hitting the car in front of me, 2 seconds later the vehicle traveling behind me hit me and squeezed between me and the center barrier and cause almost $8 000 worth of damage! She received to charge or ticket whatsoever.
If anyone has any input I would really appreciate it!
He is correct that you could have got a careless ticket for it, especially if you were 10 car lengths back. That should have given you plenty of time to stop. The problem with laying Follow to Close in rear end collisions (and the reason we were instructed not to do it in my jurisdiction) is because it's very difficult to prove the elements of following too closely if no one can give evidence as to how long you were following the vehicle in front of you, how fast, and at what distance. If you apply for disclosure and there is no evidence of these elements in the report you could bring it to the prosecutors attention and see what they say. In my region they would almost certainly drop it. Not because you don't deserve a ticket, but because they can't prove the one that was laid.
He is correct that you could have got a careless ticket for it, especially if you were 10 car lengths back. That should have given you plenty of time to stop.
The problem with laying Follow to Close in rear end collisions (and the reason we were instructed not to do it in my jurisdiction) is because it's very difficult to prove the elements of following too closely if no one can give evidence as to how long you were following the vehicle in front of you, how fast, and at what distance.
If you apply for disclosure and there is no evidence of these elements in the report you could bring it to the prosecutors attention and see what they say. In my region they would almost certainly drop it. Not because you don't deserve a ticket, but because they can't prove the one that was laid.
. .. Hi george: I can not think of a reason why the driver that hit your car would have not been charged. Is it possible that she stated that you cut her off and suddenly stopped your vehicle within her headway distance (HTA s. 158)? I noticed that you estimated the time between collisions to be 2 secs., which would show that you did not cut her off. Similarly, if your estimation of the distance between your vehicle and the one you hit (about 10 car lengths) is correct, then you should not be convicted of following too closely. If you do the math, you'll see that, as Simon Borys states, you had time to stop your vehicle. If you have not done so, file the Notice of Intention to Appear (NIA) and when you get a trial date you request disclosure. That way you'll be able to see what is the evidence the prosecutor will bring in support of the charge at trial. It sounds good to me. You have nothing to lose by doing so. Cheers .. .
.
..
Hi george:
george wrote:
ALSO, as I was stopped after hitting the car in front of me, 2 seconds later the vehicle traveling behind me hit me and squeezed between me and the center barrier and cause almost $8 000 worth of damage! She received to charge or ticket whatsoever. [/color]
george wrote:
yeah sorry I meant to say she received NO charge whatsoever
I can not think of a reason why the driver that hit your car would have not been charged. Is it possible that she stated that you cut her off and suddenly stopped your vehicle within her headway distance (HTA s. 158)?
I noticed that you estimated the time between collisions to be 2 secs., which would show that you did not cut her off.
Similarly, if your estimation of the distance between your vehicle and the one you hit (about 10 car lengths) is correct, then you should not be convicted of following too closely. If you do the math, you'll see that, as Simon Borys states, you had time to stop your vehicle.
If you have not done so, file the Notice of Intention to Appear (NIA) and when you get a trial date you request disclosure. That way you'll be able to see what is the evidence the prosecutor will bring in support of the charge at trial.
Simon Borys wrote:
If you apply for disclosure and there is no evidence of these elements in the report you could bring it to the prosecutors attention and see what they say. In my region they would almost certainly drop it. Not because you don't deserve a ticket, but because they can't prove the one that was laid.
It sounds good to me. You have nothing to lose by doing so.
My opinion is that the officer has laid the wrong ticket and that if you hire a paralegal that knows about accident investigation that you should be able to have the charge dropped completely. The charge has 4 demerit points on it, and if you pay the ticket it will on your driving record for 3 years, and together with being deemed at fault in the accident that your insurance rates will be affected. Get some legal advise, My opinion is based upon being a Toronto OPP officer and investigating many of these accidents in the past.
My opinion is that the officer has laid the wrong ticket and that if you hire a paralegal that knows about accident investigation that you should be able to have the charge dropped completely.
The charge has 4 demerit points on it, and if you pay the ticket it will on your driving record for 3 years, and together with being deemed at fault in the accident that your insurance rates will be affected.
Get some legal advise,
My opinion is based upon being a Toronto OPP officer and investigating many of these accidents in the past.
Chris Conway
Retired Toronto Traffic Officer, Hit & Run Squad Detective,
Breathalyzer Tech, Radar/Highway Patrol
Licenced Paralegal
If you are charged with FTC, and it's clear from the evidence that really you were just driving carelessly, then there's no way they can convict on FTC, and no way that they can substitute a Careless Driving charge for the FTC (definitely no way after 6 mos from the offence date). If you are charged with Careless Driving, you can be convicted for FTC in its place, b/c it's an included offence, but the opposite is not true. Take the stand and testify that you were 10 car lengths back from the car in front. There is no way you could be convicted on FTC from that distance. For sure the person who you ran into will have to testify to have any chance to convict, and they will have to testify that they saw you following them before you hit them, and at a distance that would be considered not reasonable. The officer of course cannot testify to witnessing the following, as they only arrived after the fact. Get your disclosure, see what they have on you, and then come back and let us know. FTC's are usually given in the hopes that you'll just pay them out of court. Don't.
If you are charged with FTC, and it's clear from the evidence that really you were just driving carelessly, then there's no way they can convict on FTC, and no way that they can substitute a Careless Driving charge for the FTC (definitely no way after 6 mos from the offence date). If you are charged with Careless Driving, you can be convicted for FTC in its place, b/c it's an included offence, but the opposite is not true.
Take the stand and testify that you were 10 car lengths back from the car in front. There is no way you could be convicted on FTC from that distance. For sure the person who you ran into will have to testify to have any chance to convict, and they will have to testify that they saw you following them before you hit them, and at a distance that would be considered not reasonable. The officer of course cannot testify to witnessing the following, as they only arrived after the fact.
Get your disclosure, see what they have on you, and then come back and let us know. FTC's are usually given in the hopes that you'll just pay them out of court. Don't.
I have to disagree with the comment that Follow too closely is an included offence for Careless Driving. That is simply INCORRECT. The test for an included offence is: ...one must necessarily commit the offence of ....... before the offence of ...........could be made out.
I have to disagree with the comment that Follow too closely is an included offence for Careless Driving. That is simply INCORRECT.
The test for an included offence is:
...one must necessarily commit the offence of ....... before the offence of ...........could be made out.
. Hi Traffic Law: JUST MY OPINION While what you say is correct, follow to closely could be an included offense respecting a careless driving charge. For instance, a driver who contemporaneously commits a few offences such as, speeding, follow to closely, changing lanes unsafely and cutting other vehicles off, -I have seen this in a highway a few times, could be charge and convicted with careless driving. By itself, however, as you clearly state, follow too closely is not an included offence respecting careless driving. Cheers. .
.
Hi Traffic Law:
JUST MY OPINION
Traffic Law wrote:
I have to disagree with the comment that Follow too closely is an included offence for Careless Driving. That is simply INCORRECT.
The test for an included offence is:
...one must necessarily commit the offence of ....... before the offence of ...........could be made out.
While what you say is correct, follow to closely could be an included offense respecting a careless driving charge.
R. v. Ereddia, 2006 ONCJ 303, at Paragraph 6 wrote:
Careless driving, generally speaking, requires proof of a departure from the standard of care that a reasonably prudent driver would have exercised in the circumstances, and normally involves, I would think, conduct that includes other less serious Highway Traffic Act infractions.
For instance, a driver who contemporaneously commits a few offences such as, speeding, follow to closely, changing lanes unsafely and cutting other vehicles off, -I have seen this in a highway a few times, could be charge and convicted with careless driving.
By itself, however, as you clearly state, follow too closely is not an included offence respecting careless driving.
Agreed, follow too close is not an included offence in careless. It's just often the offence that people plea to when charged with careless. However, you can not be convicted of follow too close at a trial for careless, or vice versa.
Agreed, follow too close is not an included offence in careless. It's just often the offence that people plea to when charged with careless. However, you can not be convicted of follow too close at a trial for careless, or vice versa.
This is not the right case to refer to in our argument. I am very familliar with R. v. Erredia and that case deals with a minor mistake by the driver who miscalculated a distance to the parked vehicle. That type of conduct cannot be deserving punishment for Careless Driving. You are correct, in some situations Follow too Close could be an included offence but it is far from automatic. Further I would like to add to yours and mine previous posts that determination of an included offence is a tricky business and has to be considered on the factual scenario of a particular violation. I happened to prepare a factum on similar situation <a href="http://www.trafficlawparalegal.com/red_ ... .aspx">Red Light Fail to Stop vs. Red Light Proceed Before Green</a>
R. v. Ereddia, 2006 ONCJ 303, at Paragraph 6 wrote:
Careless driving, generally speaking, requires proof of a departure from the standard of care that a reasonably prudent driver would have exercised in the circumstances, and normally involves, I would think, conduct that includes other less serious Highway Traffic Act infractions.
This is not the right case to refer to in our argument. I am very familliar with R. v. Erredia and that case deals with a minor mistake by the driver who miscalculated a distance to the parked vehicle. That type of conduct cannot be deserving punishment for Careless Driving.
You are correct, in some situations Follow too Close could be an included offence but it is far from automatic.
Further I would like to add to yours and mine previous posts that determination of an included offence is a tricky business and has to be considered on the factual scenario of a particular violation. I happened to prepare a factum on similar situation <a href="http://www.trafficlawparalegal.com/red_ ... .aspx">Red Light Fail to Stop vs. Red Light Proceed Before Green</a>
R. v. Reiber, 2007 ONCJ 343, para 15: In R v Smith, [2002] OJ No 3270, Halikowski J, sitting as a POA appellate court accepted the necessity of having all of the essential elements of the included offence as part of the original offence. In that decision, the court at paragraph 8 stated: So yes, it's not an automatic included offence (i.e. you can drive carelessly w/o following too closely), but if you did follow too closely while you drove carelessly, then you can be convicted for follow too close as an included offence. Having said all that, para 15 might be in conflict with the last sub-paragraph in para 12, and the words of Justice Binnie of the SCC.
In R v Smith, [2002] OJ No 3270, Halikowski J, sitting as a POA appellate court accepted the necessity of having all of the essential elements of the included offence as part of the original offence. In that decision, the court at paragraph 8 stated:
Mr. Smith also argued that the offence of following too closely is not an included offence in the offence of driving. His argument is not accepted, all the elements of the offence of following too closely clearly being part in the totality of the offence of careless driving in this particular set of circumstances.
So yes, it's not an automatic included offence (i.e. you can drive carelessly w/o following too closely), but if you did follow too closely while you drove carelessly, then you can be convicted for follow too close as an included offence.
Having said all that, para 15 might be in conflict with the last sub-paragraph in para 12, and the words of Justice Binnie of the SCC.
Hi, I am new to the forum. I have been trying to get information off of here and www.ticketcombat.com for my case.
I was given a ticket for going 122km/h in a posted 100km/h zone at Hwy 401 east at Thickson Rd in Whitby ON on April 10th, 2009.
I find this absolutely absurd, since I was in the left most lane of the 401 approximately(within 5km/h) following the speed of traffic in my lane. The guy in…
Hey this is my first ticket so as much information that people can provide will be appreciated. I was making the drive home going around 90kph(in a 80) behind what I knew was an undercover police car. The cop abruptly pulled to the side and pulled back in behind me to pull me over. Now I reduced my speed to below 80 when the cop pulled to the side but he claimed he had me clocked at 109kph and…
On Wednesday I attended court at 1530 Markham Road, courtroom E2, in order to fight my speeding ticket. My original plan was to plead not guilty, and to watch all the people who went before me, the process, the Prosecutor and the Justice Of The Peace so I could strategize and form the best plan for my defence at trial. I had done some research online and sort of knew I wanted to defend myself,…
About 5 months ago I was driving along a two-way road approaching an intersection. The road had a left/ straight turning lane and a right turning lane. There was an 18 wheel gravel truck occupying the left lane at a red light. I pulled behind the truck intending to drive straight. After not moving for about 1 second, I check my rear view mirror, signaled and changed lanes to the right…
I am currently working for an auto parts delivery company and they contracted me to work as a courier.
As I left my base to make my first delivery which was less than 300 meters away from the shop, I had my seat belt off because i was under the impression, according to Section 106 Exception #6 subsection (c) of the highway traffic act, that I would be exempted from the seat belt law. The rule…
Got a ticket yesterday for "Insecure Load" contrary to HTA Sec 111(2). $160. I was pulling a utility trailer in which I had loaded a steel and wood cabinet. Total length of cabinet is 57.5". 14.75" (1/4 of the cabinet) was sticking out over the side of the trailer at about a 45 degree angle, the rest (3/4) was inside the trailer. The trailer has sides 24" high. I didn't have a tie-down or bungee…
I've been researching for months for defence strategy and basic trial information regarding my speeding ticket. However, the information is so conflicting that I have no confidence whatsoever that I know what I'm doing.
I didn't get this info from a friend of a friend, it came from this website, court officials, case laws, and a consultation with a traffic ticket fighting company.
So I was driving east bound pulling an empty tandem trailer on a gravel highway. Eventually I caught up to a truck pulling a fifth wheel. The speed limit was 70km/h and I don't quite remember but I'm almost 100% that the guy in front of me was driving at 60km/h. After being behind him for a few kilometers and getting two cracks in my windshield from rocks off his tires, I decided to pass him. I…
I have been driving for over 10 years without any tickets and accidents what so ever. Unfortunately my luck ran out this past Friday; when the officer pulled me over doing 80 in a 50 zone in Mississauga, Ontario. Officer was very friendly and polite not to mention nice enough to reduce the charge to 15KM.
On the speeding ticket it now says doing 65km in a 50 zone. Never having a speeding…
hi everyone im just wondering if its right for a cop to have my car impounded and give me a traffic ticket for improper plates when my car didnt leave my property, yes i knew the plates werent to my car but on private property it dont matter aslong as it dosent go onto public property. am i right with this that i shouldnt have gotten the ticket or my car impounded?????????????
Have been busy and haven't had much time to follow up on this...
Went to court having not received disclosure (and was not organized enough to apply for a stay), so the trial was adjourned. They photocopied the officer's ticket and notes and provided a log sheet from the plane. I've sent another request for the rest of the disclosure items.
So here's my question -- can an officer amend the ticket…
Hi guys, I got pulled over last night and was ticketed with HTA 172, I was going 157 on a 100 on 400N and was wondering what I should do. I was using cruise control but the guy in the lane to my left was driving into my lane irresponsibly to I sped up to get ahead of him and just my luck that's when an OPP cruiser pulled up behind me flashing his lights. My court date is at the end of the month…
If anyone can answer this I would greatly appreciate it.
Friday morning I checked my mail and received a letter from the MTO stating that under section 47(1) of the HTA the Registrar of Motor Vehicles has decided to suspend my driving privilege for medical reasons. This was due to a report submitted by a physician in compliance with section 203 of the HTA. Enclosed with that letter were forms to…
Ok so looking for some advice in regards to my wife's speeding ticket 120k in 100 (I was in vehicle so witnessed most - but was resting at initial clock.)
whats the likelihood of positive outcome of an 11b (or an officer no show, which I suspect doesn't really happen as much as web/Ads would have you believe) of 8months.
Wife REALLY doesn't want to go, and of course I'm the one doing all of the…
I know I shouldn't have driving but I slept at my buddies' place and I thought I was ok to drive in the morning.. needless to say I still drove and got pulled over.
Background details:
I was pulled over in the morning last week, apparently going 120 km/hr on 90km Northbound DVP. Two cop cars tailed me for a bit, saw them in my rearview mirror while on the left lane, slowed down to…
I got two tickets on Feb 20 2011. One for red light, and the other for Stop sign. I knew I had a good chance at getting off on the red light, because the officer couldn't actually see the light facing me. He was at an opposite angle, further up the street.
I set a court date for both tickets. On April 22 I moved to a new place. I went to the Service Ontario location and renewed my licence…
Winnipeg's police officers have been told to issue more traffic tickets, in part to increase revenue.
And a union representing cops says the move could hurt their efforts to curb the city's gang violence.
Police Chief Keith McCaskill said last night he -- and he alone, without input from Mayor Sam Katz -- recently made the call to patrolling officers and to those in specialized units to step up…
I'm wondering if anyone could enlighten me on what to do about the following scenario:
I was pulled over by a YRP constable because I only had one front head light working. Upon being pulled over, I also realized my insurance card was expired by one month and my car permit was not on me at all. (It doesn't matter now but my valid insurance card was sitting at home in an envelope…
I have a wicked prosecutor in my area, he is an evil man and will lie and cheat, whatever is necessary for him to win. I got a yellow light infraction ticket and the cop was a no show. I requested the charge dismissed and it went like this:
Me: I request the charge be dismissed because the officer is not here
Prosecutor: No, we are going to adjourn the trial so the officer can attend
Accident happened at a regular intersection with turning lanes and lights. I was turning left. The light turned yellow, and the car approaching sped up to make the light. I thought he was stopping, so i made the turn. At the time of the collision the light was red.
I understand that it is my fault. I'm just wondering what my best course of action is.
alright well to get started ive developed a passion for longboarding
for those of you who dont already know a longboard is a big skateboard too heavy for tricks and stuff but boy can they ever go fast
my hobbies include going up the escarpment here in hamilton and stoney creek and riding down the roads leading to the lower part of the city. just wondering here. what would happen if i was going down…
My court date is nearing at old city hall at appeals court.
iwhats going to happen and what do i do?
do I present my certificate of offence and point out to the judge the fine was incorrect, I did not appear and am now appealing on the grounds the Justice of the peace erred and failed to quash the ticket on the basis of the certificate not being properly examined and is not complete and regular on…
.