Following Too Closely (2 in Cruiser)

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Following Too Closely (2 in Cruiser)

by: FireFlash on
Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:34 pm

I was on a highway going to work; it was late afternoon. It is an 80km/h highway. I was in a group of cars, then there was a tractor on the right side, so I merged into the left, then when I got the chance, went back into the right and away from the cars as I don't like being that close, I forget if I passed into the left and right again to get away from all the grouped vehicles. So this cruiser comes from behind that I didn't notice until later, must have really sped into the group of cars. I couldn't see the flashers because it was bright out and no sirens went on, so I had to look to my left, and I had the officer in the passenger seat pointing to go further ahead on the road to pull over while I was trying to pull over, but still driving. . .

So they both got out, and one told me I was too close to the car I was behind when I changed lanes (told me the colour and make I believe), while the other examined the right corner and front of my car for some reason (I told the officer I didn't have any modifications and he just kinda mumbled something I couldn't make out, but basically said that wasn't the problem. I know he wasn't looking for damage, because I was clearly told how "close" I was to the car, and there was no accident of course. There wouldn't be any damage there seeing as there was no accident. I just wonder if it was because I am young with a sports car. I have not a clue, it was strange.) The officer who was looking at the corner of my car I believe later came back with two tickets, one from each of them. (One for "Following to Closely" and another for speeding 10 km/h over from the other guy, I was too distraught to tell them apart.) I disagree with the charges.

How do I go about fighting this? I've done previous tickets POINTTS; I've never fought anything before, do I plead not guilty and request a trial?

EDIT: More General
Last edited by FireFlash on Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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by: racer on
Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:47 pm

FireFlash wrote:I've never fought anything before, do I plead not guilty and request a trial?
You should do that in any case. 1-st off, your court date will be some time in the future, during which time one of the minor tickets might pass the magic 3-year mark. Secondly, there were 2 officers in car, which means that both have to show up for trial. Save the photocopies of both tickets though.

Now, once you get the court date (or even before that), you should send in a disclosure request. Nothing too hard, just read over www.ticketcombat.com/.

Then you can still select to fight the charge by either yourself or through a paralegal, be it POINTTS or someone else. You can get a free quote from X-Copper at the bottom of this page, who sponsor the site.

Can you give us some more details? Any will help, such as lighting conditions, road shape, etc.
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by: FireFlash on
Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:08 pm

Do I ask for a disclosure request at the same time I put the option for not guilty and a trial? I'd need to drag the dates out by about 1.5 years since my first ticket was convicted over 2 years from the issued date.

As for road conditions, it was sunny and the roads were dry, no rain recently. The highway is in fairly good shape, and I was pulled over just after a bend that was going right then straight again. That time is more or less rush hour, and the cruiser was far behind me, so I don't know how he could claim I was 2 meters behind the car from being behind me, and possibly behind another car before it went into the left lane. I was behind the vehicle for maybe about 30 seconds max since I was edging up to pass it (getting far enough ahead of the vehicle to my right. (I did not notice the cruiser until it was just behind me in the left lane which leads me to believe it was in the right lane the whole time behind a car while I was on the left, nor did I know for sure that it wanted to pull me over and not the car behind or somewhat beside me until I started slowing down and checked my blind spot to see the passenger side officer motioning for me to go further up as I was pulling off to the shoulder anyways.

Considering the flow of traffic, I simply believe I became a target due to the car I was driving, they could have easily pulled over a red truck that slipped between two cars with little room to spare only moments earlier, but there was no cruiser in sight, since they came up on me really fast from what must have been way behind so they'd have had to do some pretty close passes to reach me, which is why I am not clear on exactly what happened.
Last edited by FireFlash on Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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by: hwybear on
Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:19 pm

racer wrote:. Secondly, there were 2 officers in car, which means that both have to show up for trial.
Only the one officer has to go for trial. The one issuing the offence notice.

Unless it is an intecept situation where one officer has the evidence for the charge and the other officer in a different cruiser stops the vehicle.
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by: FireFlash on
Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:24 pm

There were two cops in the cruiser. One gave me the 10km/h over ticket, the other issued the following too closely after I moved into the right lane to get out of congestion. I take it that they still must both be there despite issuing me one ticket each? Should I put these both to trial together?


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by: hwybear on
Sun Sep 20, 2009 8:29 am

FireFlash wrote:There were two cops in the cruiser. One gave me the 10km/h over ticket, the other issued the following too closely after I moved into the right lane to get out of congestion. I take it that they still must both be there despite issuing me one ticket each? Should I put these both to trial together?
then each officer would be there then
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by: FireFlash on
Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:43 pm

Thank you for all the info so far. I am going to fight this, as I don't believe I was doing anything wrong when I was moving into the right lane, and think I just got targeted as nothing even happened. I will be applying for the disclosure of the notes, and will formulate my defense accordingly.

I do have another question, though. Both the tickets are hand written (not printed), so I am not sure if "10km/h" over was actually determined by a radar machine, or just guessed at and thrown in there, same with the supposed distance between me and the other car, which was claimed at 2 meters, but considering where I suspect the cruiser was, I don't know how they'd get the speed reading, and then beyond that, I would think that the distance they suspected was a visual estimation. Will the disclosed notes reveal how all that was determined? And can cruisers record video on the fly? (They never mentioned I was on anything like that, but I suppose it's possible?)


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by: liveontheedge on
Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:55 pm

FireFlash wrote:Thank you for all the info so far. I am going to fight this, as I don't believe I was doing anything wrong when I was moving into the right lane, and think I just got targeted as nothing even happened. I will be applying for the disclosure of the notes, and will formulate my defense accordingly.

I do have another question, though. Both the tickets are hand written (not printed), so I am not sure if "10km/h" over was actually determined by a radar machine, or just guessed at and thrown in there, same with the supposed distance between me and the other car, which was claimed at 2 meters, but considering where I suspect the cruiser was, I don't know how they'd get the speed reading, and then beyond that, I would think that the distance they suspected was a visual estimation. Will the disclosed notes reveal how all that was determined? And can cruisers record video on the fly? (They never mentioned I was on anything like that, but I suppose it's possible?)

If there was radar used or video taken, they have to be disclosed to you upon request of disclosure. So sit back and relax, wait for diclosure to come then you have a better picture of how to defend it strategically. For now you can read about court procedure from www.ticketcombat.com


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by: FireFlash on
Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:58 pm

After requesting disclosure, I received for the following too closely ticket a copy of the trial notice, officer's notes, ticket, CPIC response. As for the speeding ticket, I received a copy of the trial notice, ticket, officer's notes, and a copy of Genesis-II Directional & Genesis II-Select p.9 of the manual. My request for typed copies of both officers notes was overlooked initially by the clerk, later on sent upon my request.

It's been a month now, and still no typed copies. I am going to go ahead and request other important things (based on this example one: http://scopezoom.com/11b/FollowUPDisclosure.pdf) even though I cannot completely comprehend what was written. (I was hoping to have a typed copy of both notes so I could send a comprehensive request, although that is not possible now).

I can't make out a lot of what was written, but I have a few questions regarding what I can make out.

If the make and model is identified for the car that was ahead of me, but only my vehicle make was written in the notes, with no model/information about my vehicle on the ticket, would that be found as significant if mentioned during trial as an attest to inattention? Also, neither officer mentioned the model of my vehicle, except for one of them putting something only possibly legible which is not the model of my car, or even close to any model of my car make.

By the logic of what was written on one of the note's distances, I was behind a vehicle that would have also been speeding if I was. That vehicle was not pulled over. Is that a Charter of Rights and Freedoms argument for prejudice? Because with the way they acted, the speeding ticket seemed more of an afterthought anyways. Only the follow too closely issuing was mentioned.

Neither ticket mentions what was used to determine speed except "paced at," only the disclosure contained that page of the Genesis-II implying that they used that. If the notes do not state that it was used, can they claim it was used?

My answer to a question one of the officer's asked is not an accurate statement of what I said. So this would then sort of turn into a Mens rea case-within-a-case on that statement from what I've read. The other officer has it written down, but it's impossible for him to have heard the answer in it's entirety and clarity, considering where he was in relation. Is there any hope of proving that what was written down is incorrect, since it's my word against his?


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by: Radar Identified on
Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:08 pm

FireFlash wrote:If the make and model is identified for the car that was ahead of me, but only my vehicle make was written in the notes, with no model/information about my vehicle on the ticket, would that be found as significant if mentioned during trial as an attest to inattention?
Nope.
FireFlash wrote:Also, neither officer mentioned the model of my vehicle, except for one of them putting something only possibly legible which is not the model of my car, or even close to any model of my car make.
If the officer(s) observed the offence and then followed you without losing sight of the vehicle and stopped you, that's sufficient for a conviction. Make/model isn't enough for an acquittal. They followed the vehicle, stopped and identified the driver (you).
FireFlash wrote:Is that a Charter of Rights and Freedoms argument for prejudice?
No. Be careful with that one. Making the "why me and not the other guy" argument in front of a JP really tends to raise their ire.
FireFlash wrote:My answer to a question one of the officer's asked is not an accurate statement of what I said. So this would then sort of turn into a Mens rea case-within-a-case on that statement from what I've read.
I wouldn't bet much on that one.

Follow too closely is a little harder to prove than speeding, where no collision occurred, FYI.


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by: FireFlash on
Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:21 pm

Radar Identified wrote:Follow too closely is a little harder to prove than speeding, where no collision occurred, FYI.
Thank you for the responses. Any tips on fighting this kind of thing? Does stressing since I have never been in an accident (and therefore never rear-ended anyone) despite driving daily almost every day of the year mean anything in terms of safety? If I find a way to prove that the statement written is false, is that at least enough to raise questions and give me a slight upper hand there?


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by: Radar Identified on
Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:50 am

Think of this: How/where did the officer(s) observe your actual distance from another vehicle (behind you, beside you)? How did they measure it? What is the requirement for following distance between two vehicles travelling a highway? (As a driving technique there is the "2 second rule," but this is not in the HTA.)

The argument is that the HTA law governing "follow too closely" is highly subjective. Is it possible to get a conviction without a collision? Yes, but you have experience driving your vehicle and are fully familiar with its capabilities and how it will respond under various conditions on the highway. This would tell you what would be safe and what would not. Do the officers have experience driving your vehicle make/model under those road conditions? If not - how would they appropriately judge the following distance? Again, without a collision, a little bit harder for the Crown to prove - not impossible, but more difficult. Provide your driver record when trying to add credibility to your statement.


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