We're not unfairly complaining about congestion

Toronto has longer commute times than Los Angeles, New York, London, Sydney, Chicago, Berlin and Paris. 80 minutes average commute.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transpo ... study-says

OUCH. No wonder we spend so much time in traffic...

Hence why I left the GTA....40 minute commute each way vs. 4 minute now...

Consider I've been here 19 years, have 10 til retirement work 182 shifts a year...

Time saving 72 X 182 X 29 = 380, 016 minutes or 6, 333hrs of driving time, plus associated fuel costs...and wear on my cars...

Thank God I got out when I did...

since I don't live in the GTA area...phew...(I have a 6min/1.7km drive to work) what is the cause of all this?

- traffic volume?

- improper use of merge on and off at hwy speeds?

- follow too close, causing all the merge problems?

- too many licences out of bubble gum machines? (terrible drivers)

I remember the time a few years back it was congested, but all of a sudden the area with the "chevrons" appeared and traffic seemed to move effectively

hwybear wrote:

since I don't live in the GTA area...phew...(I have a 6min/1.7km drive to work) what is the cause of all this?

All four of what you mentioned contribute to it. Mainly, it is volume. Top reasons for that:

- GTA is the 2nd most densely populated metro area in North America

- Lack of public transit that can be used across municipal boundaries (e.g. Markham to Mississauga, Brampton to Burlington) except for GO to get people to downtown Toronto, and with many people living in one city and working in another, most are forced to drive

- Toronto City Council's idiotic "war on the car" and lack of spending controls, so money doesn't go to roads or transit

- Insufficient number of roads/highways (cancellation of freeway network in 1971)

- Not enough subways (budget cuts, cancellations)

- Replacing good roads with dedicated streetcar right-of-ways that cost three times as much as projected and destroyed the neighbourhood (St. Clair Avenue)

Due to congestion, many people work "flex hours." Some stretches of road, particularly parts of the 401, have heavier mid-day traffic volumes than traditional rush hour. We have surface streets that carry over 60 000 vehicles per day (Yonge Street, Highway 7, Hurontario, Markham Road, etc), and that doesn't include the highway network. Most of the highways carry well over 200 000+ vehicles per day, 401 carries over 400 000 on a couple of stretches.

Then we have arguably the worst drivers on the continent... but that's a different ball of wax... I just got back from Vancouver, people there complain they have bad drivers, but I could not believe how predictable, courteous and orderly Vancouver drivers were in comparison...

I think it's a lot of development without investing in the infrastructure. I've seen new condos and townhouse communities cropping up all over the place but the only new highway that I've seen in my lifetime is the 407 and not too many people take it because of the costs.

Then there are the unreasonably low speed limits, which keep cars out on the road taking up space longer. What's the logic in having 5+ lanes and a 100kph speed limit? I was doing 110-115 on the 407 at an OPP-heavy time and EVERYBODY was passing me including tractor trailers and old ladies in minivans, while I was struggling not to fall asleep out of sheer boredom. Other countries I've driven in have 120km/h limits on divided highways even when they're only 2 lanes/direction as long as they're not in areas where pedestrians are likely to be. We're such a nanny-state it makes me sick.

FiReSTaRT wrote:

Then there are the unreasonably low speed limits, which keep cars out on the road taking up space longer. We're such a nanny-state it makes me sick.

+1

I remember a recent trip to alberta. 2 lane blacktop PSL of 110kmh. same in new brunswick. 401 should be 120kmh.

But im sure this debate has been brought up here before.

I don't have a problem with that...

But is it more fuel efficient / enviromentally sound?

Certainly speed limits could be raised but by designating the 401 at 110 won't people speed up to 130 vs the current 120?

The 401 moves well above 110 on most days anyway...

The 401 moves well above 110 on most days anyway...

Yeah, when it's moving....then it's 120, BRAKES, 20, 120, BRAKES.......

It isn't more fuel efficient or environmentally friendly, that's for sure. I know this because when I began to travel extensively on the hwys in Southern Ontario, the gas prices skyrocketed and I was over a barrel because of the cost of gas.

I was also travelling mostly in the left lane, or moving to the middle when someone faster wanted to pass. I'd average about 120km/h, with people passing me on the QEW most times. 130km/h to 140km/h is not uncommon. However, I had to reduce the speed and retrain myself to coast in the far right lane. I never go over 110km/h and do that only when to pass. It's a much more relaxed way to drive and I'm not gettng annoyed unless I am in the passing lane TO pass and someone ahead is treating it as a driving lane. That infuriates most people.

Aside from it being a much more relaxed ride, I have saved 7-10% on EACH tank of gas. I was lucky to get 390km to my 50L tank, and I have reached 450km driving slower (the average per tank now is about 415-420km per tank). I have to say that in the past 2 years my driving has changed considerably, forced by economics, and reaffirmed by the savings and serenity of driving. I'm less stressed because people riding up my arse in any lane but the left can kiss my bumper, my car is not being run into the ground, I'm saving money, and I'm not putting myself at risk for charges.

I'm not in favour of increased limits altogether, but I think it would be reasonable to increase the passing lane to 120km/h max, but would also like to see the left-lane bandits targetted much more, as I find they are also culprits in traffic jams. It just infuriates me when you've got some moron in the left lane with nobody in front of him, he's doing 100-110km/h and is straddling traffic to the right. It's essentially a moving road block, and they really should have the fines increased.

FyreStorm wrote:

certainly speed limits could be raised but by designating the 401 at 110 won't people speed up to 130 vs the current 120?

According to a study from Saskatchewan, where they raised the limit from 100 to 110, the answer is no. There was a slight increase in average speed, but it wasn't by much. What seemed to happen is the "high-milers" stayed at the same speed but the slow drivers sped up. Collisions and fatalities dropped on the highways when they raised the limit (possibly due to more orderly flow of traffic).

Marquisse wrote:

I'm not gettng annoyed unless I am in the passing lane TO pass and someone ahead is treating it as a driving lane. That infuriates most people.

No argument there.

Marquisse wrote:

It's essentially a moving road block, and they really should have the fines increased.

I guess if they wanted to enforce the letter of the law... it seems like that kind of driving is driving in a manner that is preventing another vehicle from passing... let's see... where have I heard that description before... oh yeah... STUNT DRIVING!

For starters, cars are a lot more fuel efficient than they were when the limits were originally placed. You wouldn't even feel a difference in fuel economy between 100 and 120.

Then, how much fuel are we wasting due to increased congestion caused by keeping the cars out there longer? That can be compounded pretty badly.

Finally, that's a band-aid that doesn't address the real issues. Switching to biofuels would give our agriculture a MAJOR boost and diesel powerplants are the most fuel efficient alternative out there. Every major car manufacturer has small diesel engine options on just about every model (I've driven a Ford Escort and a Chevy D-Max with diesel engines) but they still refuse to bring them to our market. That will do a lot more for our fuel economy than lowering the speed limits even to 80 (assuming it wouldn't cause even more congestion).

For starters, cars are a lot more fuel efficient than they were when the limits were originally placed. You wouldn't even feel a difference in fuel economy between 100 and 120

.

In my experience, this couldn't be more untrue. My average was 120km/h. My average now is 100 km/h, and I never hit empty before 415km (average is about 415-420km but I have hit 440-450km) on my tank whereas when I was driving at 120km (I travel within the Hamilton/Toronto corridor daily - the QEW/403/427) I would get the gas light at 390km, at minimum. So, at minimum, I am getting an extra 25km out of my tank. At most, 50-60km. This is a huge deal for me because it adds an additional one-way trip to my tank most weeks.

Car are more efficient at 100 km/h then they were 20 years ago, but the ratio is the same, you still get much worse mileage at 120 than you do at 100. You just get better at 120 today than you did 20 years ago.

Cities get all bunged up because there's no flow in the design. 2 way streets everywhere and an intersection in spitting distance of the next intersection and the option to turn in any direction at every intersection. Then the highways have an on-ramp every half kilometer so you get people merging on and slowing everything down just so they can exit a few yards further down the road.

Then of course people have a shortest-distance mentality so they'll wait for 3 minutes to turn left at an intersection instead of just going right and around the block or something. No one ever goes a bit past their destination and circles back even if it saves them time and stops blocking up everyone else.

My 2 cents

A 1998 Buick will go 750 km on a tank at 140 kph and 600 km at 100 kph

!5 liter saving.

I think the on ramp problems are from new drivers who think the yellow/black speed signs are the limit.(so they speed up to 60 on the ramp and find highway speed after they enter it).

My KPL test was done with a 3800 v6 engine that had 400,000 km's on it

Cheers all

Viper1

A 1998 Buick will go 750 km on a tank at 140 kph and 600 km at 100 kph

Typo??

Mileage is always better at 100 as opposed to 120......air resistance is a exponential same as braking......different cars will get their best mileage at different speeds....the limit is irrelavent anyway. Take a trip in the morning, 5:30-6:00 am and check the speeds of all the cars, 4 series highway, 115-125 plus or minus. Now check the speeds at 6:30-7:00pm, 105-115. Check again at 11:00pm-12:00, 100-105. According to the average speed on the roads, we have variable speed limits....

viper1 wrote:

I think the on ramp problems are from new drivers who think the yellow/black speed signs are the limit.(so they speed up to 60 on the ramp and find highway speed after they enter it).

Or... upon reaching the end of the ramp, fearful of getting rear-ended... they slow down.

Afraid of getting rear-ended... so drive even more slowly into a high-speed traffic stream... well no one said common sense is a pre-requisite for a driver's licence. But the stupid thing is, that's what people do! And because motorists are afraid of slow-moving traffic coming from the merge lanes, they drive in the middle lane and clog that up, too.

Reflections wrote:

A 1998 Buick will go 750 km on a tank at 140 kph and 600 km at 100 kph

Typo??

Mileage is always better at 100 as opposed to 120......air resistance is a exponential same as braking......different cars will get their best mileage at different speeds....the limit is irrelavent anyway. Take a trip in the morning, 5:30-6:00 am and check the speeds of all the cars, 4 series highway, 115-125 plus or minus. Now check the speeds at 6:30-7:00pm, 105-115. Check again at 11:00pm-12:00, 100-105. According to the average speed on the roads, we have variable speed limits....

Not a typo reflections

My car gets better mileage at about 135 kph.

That 100 stuff came from the v8 days.

Try it with whatever car you drive.

Pick a gas station and fill it up. Then drive at 100 kph to any other gas station, fill it again. Then drive back to the first station (at 135) and fill it

again.

You will be surprised about the difference.

Cheers

Viper1

Speed and fuel economy studies

Steady speed fuel economy.

Fuel economy at steady speeds with selected vehicles was studied in 1973, 1984, and 1997. The most recent study[11] indicates greater fuel efficiency at higher speeds than earlier studies; for example, some vehicles achieve better mileage at 65 than at 45 mph (72 km/h),[11] although not their best economy, such as the 1994 Oldsmobile Cutlass, which has its best economy at 55 mph (29.1 mpg), and gets 2 mpg better economy at 65 than at 45 (25 vs 23 mpg). All cars demonstrated decreasing fuel economy beyond 65 mph (105 km/h), with wind resistance the dominant factor, and save up to 25% by slowing from 70 mph (110 km/h) to 55 mph (89 km/h). However, the proportion of driving on high speed roadways varies from 4% in Ireland to 41% in Netherlands.

There were complaints when the U.S. National 55 mph (89 km/h) speed limit was mandated that it could lower, instead of increase fuel economy. The 1997 Toyota Celica, got 1 mpg better fuel-efficiency at 65 than it did at 55 (43.5 vs 42.5), although almost 5 mpg better at 60 than at 65 (48.4 vs 43.5), and its best economy (52.6 mpg) at only 25 mph (40 km/h). Other vehicles tested had from 1.4 to 20.2% better fuel-efficiency at 55 mph (89 km/h) vs. 65 mph (105 km/h). Their best economy was reached at speeds of 25 to 55 mph (see graph).[11]

ok, made my way thru the dreadful GTA today....phew...in one piece...freaking crazy out there....every 5th person yacking with a cellphone (not hands free)...2 with maps across their wheel, 4 writing while driving, one with an IPAD......too many people not moving to the right (including those in the centre lane that should move over too), thus others now criss crossing thru traffic to get one car length ahead rather than waiting 10 more seconds, and of course those people cheaped out and forgot to buy the extra option on their car "signals"

hwybear wrote:

freaking crazy out there....

I still get WTF moments on a regular basis... things I never saw when living in Detroit, Windsor, Vancouver, Memphis or Ottawa, I see all the time here. Driving in the GTA is really good for shock value.

You're not kidding! Yesterday evening driving west on the QEW, I had two cars nearly sideswipe me attempting to bully me into going faster (110km middle lane, and I was keeping pace with the left-lane). Another one played chicken with me so as not to let me merge on the QEW from 427 southbound ramp, and so many more not signalling, lane straddling, etc. I get bullied all of the time because I don't speed excessively (and I also do not ride in the left lane unless I AM prepared to go over considerably, and only to pass another vehicle or group of vehicles in the middle or right lane).

The people are so aggressive, and it gets to the point where I just say F/U and keep driving safely. It's not a situation where I'm the only one turtling in the middle lane while cars are zipping by me. I'm at the speed of the SANE folks on the road and if I don't feel like going over 110km, it's the right lane for me (and it's quite a peaceful ride, even if that lane is the most dangerous). Still, I STILL get bullied by morons who are trying to win some imaginary race and go over into the right lane to by-pass the blocked left and middle lanes.

We have a few absolute twits zig-zagging through everyone and god help you if you are in their way. This happens to me all the bloody time. ALL the time. Makes me wonder why there are even speed limits posted as they are never ever observed unless cherries are up ahead. Sheesh, I'm damned if I do go over, and damned if I don't.

Hence, why good unmarked cruisers would be helpful, to see what I saw and Marquisse, at least would clean up a lot of stupid driving.

Ironically, I've been thinking about what I previously said about being opposed to umarked cruisers. I think I was wrong. My previous perspective was that it appeared to be that the umarked cruisers were there to nab people and nothing more. I failed to see the subconscious warning their presence instilled in people. If drivers were consciously aware that there may be an umarked vehicle ready to nab them driving dangerously at any given time, then they would be less inclined to take that risk.

I find the roads getting worse for people like me. I find people to be so aggressive that there have been occasions where my life was on the line because of their bully-driving. I'm not just using overblown prose here, either. I've been frightened - not by the speed of the highway as I've travelled the highways (particularly the QEW from Toronto all the way to Fort Erie) on a very frequent basis since the very day I got my license. I am afraid of the drivers. They've changed, or I've mellowed out myself to the point of seeing the madness zip past me (and almost into me).

I'm not just using overblown prose here

English major/minor?

To the rest of us the "pros" are hockey players.

English major/minor?

To the rest of us the "pros" are hockey players.

Actually, minor, and sometimes it sneaks in without me realizing it.

My hubby is the former pro hockey player! It was quite the scandal when it was discovered that I didn't know what icing was. I must say, he's got quite the talent for trash talking on the bench. Nobody can heckle like a former member of the goon squad.

Marquisse wrote:

I find people to be so aggressive that there have been occasions where my life was on the line because of their bully-driving. I'm not just using overblown prose here, either. I've been frightened - not by the speed of the highway as I've travelled the highways (particularly the QEW from Toronto all the way to Fort Erie) on a very frequent basis since the very day I got my license. I am afraid of the drivers.

Drivers are changing. Aggressive drivers seem to be getting more so, ditto for incompetent drivers (e.g. the types who slam on the brakes and make a sudden right turn from the left lane), and those who think driving is something that's done while you're doing something else... like text-messaging... are getting more and more pre-occupied with "other tasks" while driving.

Thing about the GTA is that it isn't just one particular style/habit of driving. There are so many, you can't predict what's going to happen. That's what bothers me more than anything.

Our daily commutes have been turned into a genuine effort to survive, literally.

so today, I thought I would make a change. I thought I would go big or go home, soI went and jumped in and drove a relative's "International". So off I went at 7am. Figured I would go for a little drive and see how it went. Well I loved it so much I came back at 8pm tonight......13hrs of driving. The best was that everything was that much easier to see when your a little bit higher than sitting in a car. It was shocking to see how far away traffic stayed from me, but man this has got to be a good thing. Not quite sure how far I drove, but sometimes it almost felt like I had been down the same path before, but not quite the same. With the higher point of view I was able to see a flock of geese landing in a pond. What a great relaxing day of driving, no worries, just me.....oh forgot one small detail it was a "Case International".

hwybear wrote:

so today, I thought I would make a change. I thought I would go big or go home, soI went and jumped in and drove a relative's "International". So off I went at 7am. Figured I would go for a little drive and see how it went. Well I loved it so much I came back at 8pm tonight......13hrs of driving. The best was that everything was that much easier to see when your a little bit higher than sitting in a car. It was shocking to see how far away traffic stayed from me, but man this has got to be a good thing. Not quite sure how far I drove, but sometimes it almost felt like I had been down the same path before, but not quite the same. With the higher point of view I was able to see a flock of geese landing in a pond. What a great relaxing day of driving, no worries, just me.....oh forgot one small detail it was a "Case International".

So, how much red diesel DID you burn at the end of it all?