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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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Charged 182 (2) - NO PARKING SIGN
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:31 am 
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Im not sure if its just me or this sounds ridiculous, AND not only was i charged once for this (court pending March1st 2012) i was previously charged for the same exact thing by the same exact POLICEMAN 4 months prior. Ill explain what happened. First of all i was not even in my car LOL i was inside a Chinese food take out restaurant at the time the POLICEMAN saw my car stopped with the 4-way flashers on directly in front of a BIG NO PArKING SIGN. The sign simply and only says NO PARKING (p with crossout), i have worked at this place for quite some years now and as mentioned earlier have been charged by the same policeman for the exact same dis-obey sign thing for stopping my car in front of the restraunt going in, picking up my orders i have to deliver across town and load my car and leave. im a pretty busy guy i let the first one slide away and paid it and took 2 points. but now a second time WTF .. My drivers handbook makes it clear whéat no parking means, parking is even defined in HTA clear as day, The policeman already knows everytime why im stopped there (working) he knows me by name, and after i filed trial option for the second one heck he even found me on the job pulled beside me in a parking lot and ARGUED with me about it. after seeing the drivers handbook sign section , no parking sign says no parking unless temporarily loading merchandice or dropping passengers. And i believe that means even if i don't work there i could still stop here and pick up food i order or in my direct scenario I DO WORK THERE. i even checked the definition of Merchandise in the dictionary since there isnt one in the htA but its obvious to anyone with half a brain to know that one. if the sign said NO STANDING defined as stopping only to drop off passengers , i could see guilt. or even NO STOPPING sign, but the sign he is charging me for disobeying is a NO PARKING sign! like i was saying earlier when he stopped me to argue about it he informed me he was going on leave of absence and the court date was going to wait till december (this month) after hearing nothing for a few months is was nearing closer and closer to december, i think it was 29th of november i got a letter saying i was guilty notice of fine and duedate,..... WTF!! i promptly called the city hall and demanded answers, they told me i missed my court NOV 17th ... wow nice to know, she told me i can fill out some form get a sworn affidavid confirmed by some city treasurer. did that now my new date is march 1st 2012, my question is how do i go about defending myself here like i can take all the pictures i need to take of the area and the address on the ticket even says 38 mountjoy - the restraunt i work for exact address. there are NO other signs around and he even admitted to me during the argument it was a no parking sign. and started acting pretty shady when i guess he saw i knew what i was talking about because i asked him if he even read the section he charged me with 182 (2). how can i demonstrate to court that the HTA was not implemented for cops to POWER TRIP on citizens who do not do as they say exactly. before charging me at all he would detain me while working (go figure) and tell me oh if u do that again im going to give u the biggest ticket possible.. like no real common sence soloution , i.e; hey move your car your blocking a lane (2 lane each way street) just demands my documentation and starts writiung the ticket. anyways any advice about the whole court thing would be nice because i have never even been to court. I have filed an offical police complaint regarding his conduct overall , as well as speaking with someone inside the station regarding the matter who was very polite and respectfull,(opposite of POLICEMAN charging ) because in general i have no problems with the police, they routinely see me doing my job , they are resonable i have been charged in the past for speeding and such but like i mean im quilty! i take the loss and still not treated anywere near the way the one policeman acts. i just got a waring letter for demerit points disobey signX2 and a SEATBELt ticket and that was even issed by.... guess the same policeman... anyways if this catches anyones attention help would be greatly appreciated i have a little over 2 months to prepare for court.


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Re: Charged 182 (2) - NO PARKING SIGN
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:02 am 
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Location: In YOUR rearview mirror!
the "drivers handbook" you refer to is NOT the law, the HTA and associated regulations are laws!
HTA 182(2) is a correct charge for any sign referred to in HTA OREG 615
NO parking signs are in the HTA OREG 615
- a NO parking sign with 2 arrows = prohibits parking in both directions
- a NO parking sign with 1 arrow = prohibits parking in one direction from the sign
There are NO exemptions in the HTA for this sign, that I can find
all above is just fyi

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Re: Charged 182 (2) - NO PARKING SIGN
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:33 am 
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In the DEFINITIONS (beginning of act) it makes it clear how to interpret the terminology they use.... to be more dam specific iTS THE FIRST CHAPTER.. im guessing policeman do not read here. check it out and read what they define as parking.. “park” or “parking”, when prohibited, means the standing of a vehicle, whether occupied or not, except when standing temporarily for the purpose of and while actually engaged in loading or unloading merchandise or passengers; (“stationnement”)


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Re: Charged 182 (2) - NO PARKING SIGN
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:20 pm 
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Not sure why you're tearing a strip off Bear. He's simply pointing out that you can be charged under section 182 for disobeying a no parking sign, so it's the correct charge for the allegation.

I'm not sure if the Courts have defined what they consider "temporary" to be when it comes to loading goods/passengers, but it appears the officer felt you didn't meet that definition. He'll obviously have to articulate in Court why he felt that, so I'd recommend seeking disclosure. If he sat there and timed you for 10 minutes, you may have a hard time arguing you weren't parked. If he simply came across your vehicle and immediately charged you, I don't think he'd be able to prove the offence. Regardless, you'll have to argue the matter in Court. I'd suggest speaking with the Crown prior to trial. If they feel the officer can't prove the offence they might simply withdraw the charge and save you a lot of time.


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Re: Charged 182 (2) - NO PARKING SIGN
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 2:20 pm 
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Thank you for your input, greatly appreciated! And Temporarily (in my case) means stopping, getting out walking roughly 15 - 20 footsteps, into the restaurant and possibly 5 more to the counter to pay for my orders, all at a close distance i can see my car completely at all times. The officer DID NOT sit there and time me in either situation. the first time i was already in my car leaving and he rolled up with the lights on. THIS time as SOON as i walked in i saw very bright lights because it was night time ( 11pm ) i ran outside right away because alot of the officers here simply ask me to move, and i do as requested without further incident, so basically i walk out, see im pulled over, i walked up to the officers window he asked me for my documents, i went to my car few feet away , returned, gave him the documentation, and went back inside to finish being refunded some money i was owed for an order i had just returned because no one was home.

You have made me see another part of it tho, im thankfull, whether or not he can prove, or define temporarily, I use my 4-way flashers for saftey reasons, and car is always running with keys in ignition, and window down half way. If we look at it the other way, can he prove that i was PERMANENTLY parking here for the night or to go eat lunch. it seems unlikley to me that someone would just leave there car for a long period of time unattended , running , lights on ECT.


Anyways im just tired of the one specific police man treating me like some punk ass with no respect. all i am doing is WORKING A JOB, 25 years old and i have a 4 year old child to take care of. there is a spot for me to park off the road, however it is often taken by someone else picking up food, or BLOCKED by someone else doing the same thing im not aloud to do leaving me with the option of seeking a parking lot a block away, or quickly running in and out so i dont have to carry arms full of food for a block, and sometimes i even have to make 2 trips in and out because there is so much food and it is so busy. if that is the case heck i may as well quit and sell drugs or something because the system is punishing me for having a job basically or making my job a living *&?&?(*& hell. I do use the parking space when empty dont get me wrong, im not disrespectfull in anyway to the officer or any officer for that matter, I follow the rules of the road regularly.

Somedays i can count up to 20 cars that do this exact same thing ! go pick up their orders they placed by phone. and its really upsetting when my spot is blocked and in one instance ive asked nicley for someone to move and they said NO and it further snowballed to the point this big guy got out and started protuding his gut into me pushing me around... like why do i have to deal with all of this, when in my opinion and under the circumstances im not parking as defined by HTA ... anyone else with some more insight or am i going crazy .... one more question how do i seek the notes and whatnot, i really want to do everything by the book and beat this.


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Re: Charged 182 (2) - NO PARKING SIGN
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:34 pm 
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Anyone else? I believe i am a victim here of a powertrip, The officer always rambles why its a problem in the city.. blah blah.. but i believe that is out of range of his job, the street is well signed its not guetto, like i said the next block closer to the main highway is signed NO STOPPING ... why would they put 2 diffrent signs up if they all meant the same thing? there is no question of what sign it was, i was parked directly underneath of it in between the arrows. And during the argument i had with the officer a few weeks after both incidents, I could clearly tell he had no idea what was defined as parking, or even what the section 182 (2) said. When i started questioning him he pulled out his handbook. After reading the parking definition, he tried saying... "yeah well there are definitions before certain sections blah blah" Implying that the GENERAL INTERPRETATIONS section only applied to?? who knows what he meant by that but it did not make scene, he furthermore said in a more aggravated voice "YEAH .. well it says EXCEPT WHEN that means YOU CANT DO IT AT ALL.... WTF? like i pleaded with him "officer you must have went to school for a lengthly amount of time... please re read that definition again" He began chuckling saying my name like i was a joke, and telling me he would come in on his day off to argue with me ANYTIME. he then began saying a friend of his works at the court house or something that happened to be working in the station that night. He further said he would go pick him up? lol and bring him in the cruiser and come find me and we could debate further.. i was skeptical thinking i was going to just get into more trouble, he then re assured me it was for argument sake. After he made that point clear i told him Anytime! ( he knew he could find me again because i was working at this time too) Anyways he never seen me again i guess or was just bluffing, but i assured him it didnt matter what his "buddy" thought it mattered what the HTA said and what the judge decides. The history with this officer goes back quite some years, its always the same *EDIT*, he goes out of his way to try to find something i did wrong.... Seatbelt.. parking.. ECT And the average joe police man around here never bothers me, talks to me normal , doesnt make me feel scared, If i am stopped its usually for a GOOD reason and even then after that im usually told what ive done wrong sometimes a ticket but its given to me in a way that i feel i deserved it ... and i do know better half the time. Due to my job i am on the road anywere from 6 hours up to 14 hours per day i do realize the chances of me getting ticketed are good due to the frequency of road use, and with that said in the past almost 3 years now i have gotten about 5 tickets 3 were from the same officer (disobey sign x 2) and (seatbelt). One of the other tickets was for Excess noise, and at that stop the policeman had busted me for having 5% tint on all windows and even a slate in the front windshield. and a few other things he didnt like so i mean i was still getting a huge chance, (only drive this car 2 months out of a year) and the next ticket i got was for... guess.... my tint... well not all of it but specifically the windshield slates. i was issued a ticket with a 72 hour warning for a chance to correct the problem, witch i did the next day without incident. no more tint on my windshield. And the car i drive for work... is all up to spec, No illegal Exhaust no window tint whatsoever. nothing to attract attention other than no one has the same car as me around here (92 integra). Anyways if you read this please post your opinions on the matter, like i said im open minded and i dont take offence to much


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Re: Charged 182 (2) - NO PARKING SIGN
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:32 pm 
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If you have concerns over the behaviour/attitude of the officer, you will need to address that to the Police Service itself. I would not recommend bringing it up at trial, as it’s not relevant to the offence.


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Re: Charged 182 (2) - NO PARKING SIGN
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:45 am 
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Sounds reasonable to me, and i have already done so. with that being said, do you think he can bring up things like he previously saw me parking, or while off duty or whatnot?? or does trail SOLEY hear specific offence details? Because i have Witnesses (my boss) that can testify to the fact it was about 20 seconds before we both saw lights? and i still need some details regarding DISCLOSURE. I dont want to look like an idiot for trying to do something im not 100% educated on.


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Re: Charged 182 (2) - NO PARKING SIGN
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:40 am 
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bump for some more answers :)


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Re: Charged 182 (2) - NO PARKING SIGN
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:39 pm 
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This is a Rant not a question. Please stick to questions at hand and be clear and to the point. This is a forum for help, respecting views is important here.

Just get disclosure first if you already haven't then go from there.

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Re: Charged 182 (2) - NO PARKING SIGN
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:29 am 
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I would do as the others have suggested, get disclosure and see what the officer's notes say. Once you have his notes you will be able to better judge what kind of defense you might have. If you have time do a case law search as well and see if there are any court decisions regarding the use of S.182 (2) for parking offences. I don't know if their are any, but it never hurts to look. Also do a case law search to see if the courts have clarified the definition of temporarily loading and off loading passengers or goods. Again not sure if there is anything out there but it doesn't hurt to look as there might be a ruling that supports your case. If your worried about your driving record and don't want to risk a trial, you can talk to the prosecutor about a plea bargain. The prosecution may be willing to reduce this offence to a parking ticket which would not appear on your driving record and probably carry a much smaller fine.


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Re: Charged 182 (2) - NO PARKING SIGN
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:40 am 
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"Actually engaged in" - key words. You were in the store, hence you were not "actually engaged in" loading merchandise.

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Re: Charged 182 (2) - NO PARKING SIGN
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:06 am 
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lol i dont know about that.. i was without reasonable doubt in the act of unloading merchandise as it needed to be unloaded into the business. but you never know things like that worry me. i dont think its reasonable for the situation (4 demerits total and 220$) guess ill be safer parking in front of a fire hydrant and ACTUALLY doing some sort of harm, but only get 55$ ticket and if your too long a tow truck? still better off cause i wont get demerits! as long as their isn't a sign? come on! im willing to bet this was NEVER issued to another single licensed Ontario driver! Parking ticket thing sounds legit... expired meter (max 10$) , wouldn't be complaining ... this whole thing is just stress.


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Re: Charged 182 (2) - NO PARKING SIGN
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:22 pm 
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you don't say what city?
However most have an exception for delivery vehicles.
In Toronto the owner of the company must register his signature with the parking ticket place.
You then get him to write a letter with date/time saying you were delivering/picking up.
Along with the original of the waybilll/bill of lading/work order.
Food bill should work the same way.
I have a job similar to yours and have had at least 50 rejected right at the counter.
You must be in a no parking zone or a lane-way.
In the last two weeks I have had the parking ticket officer rip up 3 tickets on the side of the street.(after I showed them my waybills)

If it was a cop (who ticketed you) they don't really want to show up for court on a parking ticket (usually a different court then traffic)
Get a court date and go show the court your food order. Most likely it will be withdrawn.



Cheers
Viper1

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Re: Charged 182 (2) - NO PARKING SIGN
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:10 am 
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viper1 wrote:
you don't say what city?
However most have an exception for delivery vehicles.


I believe it's Timmins.

The problem is that he wasn't charged under a bylaw, but the HTA. Because of that whatever exemptions the City may have wouldn't apply.


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