I commited the offence of Disobeying to stop on a stop sign this morning. The officer says I slowed down but did not completely stop at the sign. This was at a 3-way stop in a school zone. The weather is bad and there was freezing rain warning in the morning. The roads were not entirely slippery, but I was wondering if I can have a case here. I could not stop due to the weather and slippery conditions, my car slipped on the road and I just continued on. I have a clean record for 16 yrs and this is my first offence. Please advise.
I commited the offence of Disobeying to stop on a stop sign this morning. The officer says I slowed down but did not completely stop at the sign. This was at a 3-way stop in a school zone.
The weather is bad and there was freezing rain warning in the morning. The roads were not entirely slippery, but I was wondering if I can have a case here.
I could not stop due to the weather and slippery conditions, my car slipped on the road and I just continued on. I have a clean record for 16 yrs and this is my first offence.
The courts do not consider "weather conditions" to be a valid reason for failing to stop. If you were to testify that the roads were slippery and that was why you were unable to stop, it would be a "gimme" for the Prosecutor. Some valid reasons for failing to stop include: - Brakes failed unexpectedly (mechanical problem, would need a mechanic's certificate and would have had to have towed your vehicle) - Rear-ended by another vehicle and it pushed you past the stop line - Life-threatening emergency - Collision avoidance (e.g. someone careening towards you) If you wanted to pursue this further, you could, for example, plea-bargain to a lesser offence.
The courts do not consider "weather conditions" to be a valid reason for failing to stop. If you were to testify that the roads were slippery and that was why you were unable to stop, it would be a "gimme" for the Prosecutor. Some valid reasons for failing to stop include:
- Brakes failed unexpectedly (mechanical problem, would need a mechanic's certificate and would have had to have towed your vehicle)
- Rear-ended by another vehicle and it pushed you past the stop line
- Life-threatening emergency
- Collision avoidance (e.g. someone careening towards you)
If you wanted to pursue this further, you could, for example, plea-bargain to a lesser offence.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
I think there are some situations where road conditions can amount to a due dilligence defence. If can establish that you were driving appropriately for the circumstances and you encountered a road condition or other situation that was essentially unforseeable, and you did everything you could, you may be able to establish the defence. I think the key is that the event or condition was reasonably unforseeable, because if it was not, and you did or should have forseen it, then you weren't driving reasonably for the conditions. For example, if you're driving on icy roads at a normal speed and you hit some ice and can't stop, you were not exercising due dilligence. If you were, you would have been driving slow enough to be able to handle the ice. I think that's the way the courts usually look at it.
I think there are some situations where road conditions can amount to a due dilligence defence. If can establish that you were driving appropriately for the circumstances and you encountered a road condition or other situation that was essentially unforseeable, and you did everything you could, you may be able to establish the defence. I think the key is that the event or condition was reasonably unforseeable, because if it was not, and you did or should have forseen it, then you weren't driving reasonably for the conditions.
For example, if you're driving on icy roads at a normal speed and you hit some ice and can't stop, you were not exercising due dilligence. If you were, you would have been driving slow enough to be able to handle the ice. I think that's the way the courts usually look at it.
I received a ticked for failing to stop on a 3-way stop sign. The cost is $110 and the 3-points. I have pleaded NOT-GUILTY to buy some time. I want to meet with the prosecutor to see if they can at least forgive the 3-points or let go of it. This is my first offense in a 16 year driving record. Can someone please advise how I can go about the prosecutors letting go of the 3-points
I received a ticked for failing to stop on a 3-way stop sign. The cost is $110 and the 3-points.
I have pleaded NOT-GUILTY to buy some time.
I want to meet with the prosecutor to see if they can at least forgive the 3-points or let go of it.
This is my first offense in a 16 year driving record.
Can someone please advise how I can go about the prosecutors letting go of the 3-points
Just to clarify what Simon's saying, the Crown and JP can only change fines, not demerit points. Once you're convicted, the Ministry assigns the set number of points for the offence committed. The only way to avoid points is to plead out to a different offence with less points or go to trial and hopefully be found not guilty.
rajasam78 wrote:
Can someone please advise how I can go about the prosecutors letting go of the 3-points
Just to clarify what Simon's saying, the Crown and JP can only change fines, not demerit points. Once you're convicted, the Ministry assigns the set number of points for the offence committed.
The only way to avoid points is to plead out to a different offence with less points or go to trial and hopefully be found not guilty.
Thanks for the valuable advise. Can I ask for FULL DISCLOSURE. In the event that perhaps they are not able to provide all the information. I am not a legal expert and thats why I am here trying to figure how to get out of these points. Any valubale advise is appreciated. As of now I am going to plead not guilty for due deligence
Thanks for the valuable advise.
Can I ask for FULL DISCLOSURE. In the event that perhaps they are not able to provide all the information. I am not a legal expert and thats why I am here trying to figure how to get out of these points. Any valubale advise is appreciated.
As of now I am going to plead not guilty for due deligence
Yes, but when you say "all the information", what are you expecting them to provide? For a stop sign offence, I can't think of much more than the officer's notes. While some offences can have a significant amount of disclosure (radar manuals, accident reports, witness statements), yours sounds pretty basic.
rajasam78 wrote:
Can I ask for FULL DISCLOSURE. In the event that perhaps they are not able to provide all the information.
Yes, but when you say "all the information", what are you expecting them to provide? For a stop sign offence, I can't think of much more than the officer's notes. While some offences can have a significant amount of disclosure (radar manuals, accident reports, witness statements), yours sounds pretty basic.
Will FULL DISCLOSURE not include information on where the officer was parked, and what his line of visible sight is. Also, all his notes that he was taking on what he witnessed On the day of the offense, there was freezing rain. This warning was also posted on Environment Canada's weather site. What chances do I have by pleading Due Deligence. That is saying that I did not drive slowly or access caution due to weather conditions. I slowed down at the stop sign, which I did according to the officer. But as the roads were slippery and I was not driving slow enough, I was not able to stop and just continued on through the stop sign. The offense occurred at 9:50am. The night up to the morning there was freezing rain warning on the weather. However the roads were clean, can I still use this as a defence. Please advise
Will FULL DISCLOSURE not include information on where the officer was parked, and what his line of visible sight is. Also, all his notes that he was taking on what he witnessed
On the day of the offense, there was freezing rain. This warning was also posted on Environment Canada's weather site. What chances do I have by pleading Due Deligence. That is saying that I did not drive slowly or access caution due to weather conditions. I slowed down at the stop sign, which I did according to the officer. But as the roads were slippery and I was not driving slow enough, I was not able to stop and just continued on through the stop sign. The offense occurred at 9:50am. The night up to the morning there was freezing rain warning on the weather. However the roads were clean, can I still use this as a defence.
Possibly. While there are certain facts in issue that officers should try to include in their notes, everyone makes their notes differently and some will put in information that others will leave out. Again, possibly. It will depend on what the officer says, how you present your evidence and the JP hearing the matter. If the officer was there for an extended period of time and saw a dozen vehicles stop without difficult before and after you, it might be harder to say you were driving at an appropriate speed for the weather. You have a defence that you can present, but nobody can say for sure how successful you'll be.
rajasam78 wrote:
Will FULL DISCLOSURE not include information on where the officer was parked, and what his line of visible sight is. Also, all his notes that he was taking on what he witnessed
Possibly. While there are certain facts in issue that officers should try to include in their notes, everyone makes their notes differently and some will put in information that others will leave out.
rajasam78 wrote:
On the day of the offense, there was freezing rain. This warning was also posted on Environment Canada's weather site. What chances do I have by pleading Due Deligence. That is saying that I did not drive slowly or access caution due to weather conditions. I slowed down at the stop sign, which I did according to the officer. But as the roads were slippery and I was not driving slow enough, I was not able to stop and just continued on through the stop sign. The offense occurred at 9:50am. The night up to the morning there was freezing rain warning on the weather. However the roads were clean, can I still use this as a defence.
Please advise
Again, possibly. It will depend on what the officer says, how you present your evidence and the JP hearing the matter. If the officer was there for an extended period of time and saw a dozen vehicles stop without difficult before and after you, it might be harder to say you were driving at an appropriate speed for the weather. You have a defence that you can present, but nobody can say for sure how successful you'll be.
Officer's notes probably won't be that precise. He might've written down his approximate location, etc. However, his notes do not have to be extensive. In this instance, the officer's notes are about all you'll get for disclosure. A cautionary note: Please don't ask for things like "witness will-say statements" and "statements made by the defendant" etc in your disclosure request. In your case they won't exist and asking for them is not going to help you. Ask for the officer's notes, typed if not legible. That will likely be used against you. As Stanton says, if other vehicles were successfully stopping, then the weather cannot be used as a defence.
rajasam78 wrote:
Will FULL DISCLOSURE not include information on where the officer was parked, and what his line of visible sight is. Also, all his notes that he was taking on what he witnessed
Officer's notes probably won't be that precise. He might've written down his approximate location, etc. However, his notes do not have to be extensive. In this instance, the officer's notes are about all you'll get for disclosure. A cautionary note: Please don't ask for things like "witness will-say statements" and "statements made by the defendant" etc in your disclosure request. In your case they won't exist and asking for them is not going to help you. Ask for the officer's notes, typed if not legible.
rajasam78 wrote:
On the day of the offense, there was freezing rain. This warning was also posted on Environment Canada's weather site.
That will likely be used against you.
As Stanton says, if other vehicles were successfully stopping, then the weather cannot be used as a defence.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
We can't help you prepare a "good defence case" until we know what the evidence is against you. You'll have to wait until you get disclosure. When you do get it, then post the information (editing out personal/officer details) on this thread and we can help you. Right now, trying to give you a defence strategy would not be a good idea. There may be quite a few defence angles that the officer may already have covered, or may not have.
We can't help you prepare a "good defence case" until we know what the evidence is against you. You'll have to wait until you get disclosure. When you do get it, then post the information (editing out personal/officer details) on this thread and we can help you. Right now, trying to give you a defence strategy would not be a good idea. There may be quite a few defence angles that the officer may already have covered, or may not have.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
FULL DISCLOSURE Comments / Synopsis" "Conducting STEP enforcement in Daycare/School zone, noted the defendant operating his 2005 Honda Civic S/B on Activa Ave approaching a 3 way stop at Max Becker Dr in the City of Kitchener. The defendant slowed to approx 20 km and continued over clearly visible stop bar and sign combination and straight through the intersection. Defendant made statement that he was unaware of his actions, and was late for work after taking his daughter to a doctor's appointment. Defendant was polite, co-operative, and I was able to confirm his statement that he had a clean driving record" More detailed handwritten notes include: "Environment Canada - Overcast, Freezing Rain warning - Roads wet but clear" "2 elementary schools, day care, and park with mothers walking baby carriages across intersection, no vision obstruction, clear view of sight" My comments: Is there a defense that I can have against this. Can I argue about the speed, how does the officer know I was going 20 km/h. Also the officer was parked in a small plaza (Macs, daycare, pizza place). Does the officer need permission to park in this place as its private ?. Can I use a due diligence defense that I was not driving carefully for weather conditions. I should have been driving more slowly to allow for me to stop on time. Any help would be appreciated. I have my first attendance on Monday April 4. I would like to eliminate the 3 points against me.
FULL DISCLOSURE
Comments / Synopsis"
"Conducting STEP enforcement in Daycare/School zone, noted the defendant operating his 2005 Honda Civic S/B on Activa Ave approaching a 3 way stop at Max Becker Dr in the City of Kitchener. The defendant slowed to approx 20 km and continued over clearly visible stop bar and sign combination and straight through the intersection. Defendant made statement that he was unaware of his actions, and was late for work after taking his daughter to a doctor's appointment. Defendant was polite, co-operative, and I was able to confirm his statement that he had a clean driving record"
"2 elementary schools, day care, and park with mothers walking baby carriages across intersection, no vision obstruction, clear view of sight"
My comments:
Is there a defense that I can have against this. Can I argue about the speed, how does the officer know I was going 20 km/h. Also the officer was parked in a small plaza (Macs, daycare, pizza place). Does the officer need permission to park in this place as its private ?.
Can I use a due diligence defense that I was not driving carefully for weather conditions. I should have been driving more slowly to allow for me to stop on time.
Any help would be appreciated. I have my first attendance on Monday April 4. I would like to eliminate the 3 points against me.
What are you going to argue about this, it's just a guess and he doesn't need to prove what your speed was to prove the offence, he just has to prove that you were going more than zero km/hr. No. No.
rajasam78 wrote:
Can I argue about the speed, how does the officer know I was going 20 km/h.
What are you going to argue about this, it's just a guess and he doesn't need to prove what your speed was to prove the offence, he just has to prove that you were going more than zero km/hr.
rajasam78 wrote:
Also the officer was parked in a small plaza (Macs, daycare, pizza place). Does the officer need permission to park in this place as its private ?.
No.
rajasam78 wrote:
Can I use a due diligence defense that I was not driving carefully for weather conditions. I should have been driving more slowly to allow for me to stop on time.
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