Section 136 (1)(a) Disobey Stop sign

I commited the offence of Disobeying to stop on a stop sign this morning. The officer says I slowed down but did not completely stop at the sign. This was at a 3-way stop in a school zone.

The weather is bad and there was freezing rain warning in the morning. The roads were not entirely slippery, but I was wondering if I can have a case here.

I could not stop due to the weather and slippery conditions, my car slipped on the road and I just continued on. I have a clean record for 16 yrs and this is my first offence.

Please advise.

The courts do not consider "weather conditions" to be a valid reason for failing to stop. If you were to testify that the roads were slippery and that was why you were unable to stop, it would be a "gimme" for the Prosecutor. Some valid reasons for failing to stop include:

- Brakes failed unexpectedly (mechanical problem, would need a mechanic's certificate and would have had to have towed your vehicle)

- Rear-ended by another vehicle and it pushed you past the stop line

- Life-threatening emergency

- Collision avoidance (e.g. someone careening towards you)

If you wanted to pursue this further, you could, for example, plea-bargain to a lesser offence.

I think there are some situations where road conditions can amount to a due dilligence defence. If can establish that you were driving appropriately for the circumstances and you encountered a road condition or other situation that was essentially unforseeable, and you did everything you could, you may be able to establish the defence. I think the key is that the event or condition was reasonably unforseeable, because if it was not, and you did or should have forseen it, then you weren't driving reasonably for the conditions.

For example, if you're driving on icy roads at a normal speed and you hit some ice and can't stop, you were not exercising due dilligence. If you were, you would have been driving slow enough to be able to handle the ice. I think that's the way the courts usually look at it.

I received a ticked for failing to stop on a 3-way stop sign. The cost is $110 and the 3-points.

I have pleaded NOT-GUILTY to buy some time.

I want to meet with the prosecutor to see if they can at least forgive the 3-points or let go of it.

This is my first offense in a 16 year driving record.

Can someone please advise how I can go about the prosecutors letting go of the 3-points

You don't. They're non negotiable.

rajasam78 wrote:

Can someone please advise how I can go about the prosecutors letting go of the 3-points

Just to clarify what Simon's saying, the Crown and JP can only change fines, not demerit points. Once you're convicted, the Ministry assigns the set number of points for the offence committed.

The only way to avoid points is to plead out to a different offence with less points or go to trial and hopefully be found not guilty.

Thanks for the valuable advise.

Can I ask for FULL DISCLOSURE. In the event that perhaps they are not able to provide all the information. I am not a legal expert and thats why I am here trying to figure how to get out of these points. Any valubale advise is appreciated.

As of now I am going to plead not guilty for due deligence

rajasam78 wrote:

Can I ask for FULL DISCLOSURE. In the event that perhaps they are not able to provide all the information.

Yes, but when you say "all the information", what are you expecting them to provide? For a stop sign offence, I can't think of much more than the officer's notes. While some offences can have a significant amount of disclosure (radar manuals, accident reports, witness statements), yours sounds pretty basic.

Will FULL DISCLOSURE not include information on where the officer was parked, and what his line of visible sight is. Also, all his notes that he was taking on what he witnessed

On the day of the offense, there was freezing rain. This warning was also posted on Environment Canada's weather site. What chances do I have by pleading Due Deligence. That is saying that I did not drive slowly or access caution due to weather conditions. I slowed down at the stop sign, which I did according to the officer. But as the roads were slippery and I was not driving slow enough, I was not able to stop and just continued on through the stop sign. The offense occurred at 9:50am. The night up to the morning there was freezing rain warning on the weather. However the roads were clean, can I still use this as a defence.

Please advise

rajasam78 wrote:

Will FULL DISCLOSURE not include information on where the officer was parked, and what his line of visible sight is. Also, all his notes that he was taking on what he witnessed

Possibly. While there are certain facts in issue that officers should try to include in their notes, everyone makes their notes differently and some will put in information that others will leave out.

rajasam78 wrote:

On the day of the offense, there was freezing rain. This warning was also posted on Environment Canada's weather site. What chances do I have by pleading Due Deligence. That is saying that I did not drive slowly or access caution due to weather conditions. I slowed down at the stop sign, which I did according to the officer. But as the roads were slippery and I was not driving slow enough, I was not able to stop and just continued on through the stop sign. The offense occurred at 9:50am. The night up to the morning there was freezing rain warning on the weather. However the roads were clean, can I still use this as a defence.

Please advise

Again, possibly. It will depend on what the officer says, how you present your evidence and the JP hearing the matter. If the officer was there for an extended period of time and saw a dozen vehicles stop without difficult before and after you, it might be harder to say you were driving at an appropriate speed for the weather. You have a defence that you can present, but nobody can say for sure how successful you'll be.

rajasam78 wrote:

Will FULL DISCLOSURE not include information on where the officer was parked, and what his line of visible sight is. Also, all his notes that he was taking on what he witnessed

Officer's notes probably won't be that precise. He might've written down his approximate location, etc. However, his notes do not have to be extensive. In this instance, the officer's notes are about all you'll get for disclosure. A cautionary note: Please don't ask for things like "witness will-say statements" and "statements made by the defendant" etc in your disclosure request. In your case they won't exist and asking for them is not going to help you. Ask for the officer's notes, typed if not legible.

rajasam78 wrote:

On the day of the offense, there was freezing rain. This warning was also posted on Environment Canada's weather site.

That will likely be used against you.

As Stanton says, if other vehicles were successfully stopping, then the weather cannot be used as a defence.

What are my options then for a good defence case.

What is the best case I can present.

We can't help you prepare a "good defence case" until we know what the evidence is against you. You'll have to wait until you get disclosure. When you do get it, then post the information (editing out personal/officer details) on this thread and we can help you. Right now, trying to give you a defence strategy would not be a good idea. There may be quite a few defence angles that the officer may already have covered, or may not have.

FULL DISCLOSURE

Comments / Synopsis"

"Conducting STEP enforcement in Daycare/School zone, noted the defendant operating his 2005 Honda Civic S/B on Activa Ave approaching a 3 way stop at Max Becker Dr in the City of Kitchener. The defendant slowed to approx 20 km and continued over clearly visible stop bar and sign combination and straight through the intersection. Defendant made statement that he was unaware of his actions, and was late for work after taking his daughter to a doctor's appointment. Defendant was polite, co-operative, and I was able to confirm his statement that he had a clean driving record"

More detailed handwritten notes include:

"Environment Canada - Overcast, Freezing Rain warning - Roads wet but clear"

"2 elementary schools, day care, and park with mothers walking baby carriages across intersection, no vision obstruction, clear view of sight"

My comments:

Is there a defense that I can have against this. Can I argue about the speed, how does the officer know I was going 20 km/h. Also the officer was parked in a small plaza (Macs, daycare, pizza place). Does the officer need permission to park in this place as its private ?.

Can I use a due diligence defense that I was not driving carefully for weather conditions. I should have been driving more slowly to allow for me to stop on time.

Any help would be appreciated. I have my first attendance on Monday April 4. I would like to eliminate the 3 points against me.

rajasam78 wrote:

Can I argue about the speed, how does the officer know I was going 20 km/h.

What are you going to argue about this, it's just a guess and he doesn't need to prove what your speed was to prove the offence, he just has to prove that you were going more than zero km/hr.

rajasam78 wrote:

Also the officer was parked in a small plaza (Macs, daycare, pizza place). Does the officer need permission to park in this place as its private ?.

No.

rajasam78 wrote:

Can I use a due diligence defense that I was not driving carefully for weather conditions. I should have been driving more slowly to allow for me to stop on time.

No.

Is there any defence I can use for this case ?

You can use a due dilligence defence, IF it applies on the facts. However the fact that you weren't driving according to weather/road conditions (as you said in a previous post) does not make out a due dilligence defence, in fact that's the complete opposite. Due dilligence would be I WAS driving according to weather/road conditions.

The officer comments on environment canada's weather forcast about freezing rain. But he also says the roads were clear. Can I use a due diligence defence that I slowed down but could not stop due to the weather condition and just continued through.

Is there any other defence I can use or is this the only one.

Can you please help advise me.

There's no magical explanation that you can use in Court to simply be found not guilty. Radar Identified gave you a few possible scenarios that can explain the offence, but it sounds like by your admission you just simply failed to stop. There is no point trying to perjure yourself on the stand by making up a defence, nor will anyone on this forum assist you in doing so. If the weather truly was an issue, you can try explaining that to the Courts, but you're expected to adjust your driving for the conditions. A last resort option is to simply have the trial and see if the Crown can prove their case, but based on disclosure it sounds like they certainly can.

One thing I've noticed is that you seem to very focused on the demerit points. Are you aware that insurance companies look at the offence, not demerit points? If you have a clean driving record for over 16 years, most insurance companies will overlook a minor offence with no rate increase, regardless of points.

Further to that, the defence of due dilligence means you did everything reasonably possible to avoid committing the offence, which means you would have to establish that, even given the poor road/weather conditions, you did everything reasonable to moderate your driving while approaching the stop sign so that you would be able to stop. I think that no matter what you say you did to moderate your driving, the prosecutor is going to suggest that all you had to do to avoid failing to stop is go slower than you were going approaching the sign. This is why due dilligence is not very easy to prove, because it's tough to establish that you did EVERYTHING REASONABLE to avoid committing the offence.

Also, as you can see, whether the defence will succeed is very fact specific, that is why no one here can give you any firm answers about whether it will work.

Thanks for the advise. If proven guilty I will accept the charges, but I want to try to prepare a good case.

A friend of mine received a speeding ticket a while back. The officer was parked in a private property. He brought this to the prosecutors attention, and it was found the officer did not have a permit or permission to park there. So he could not be charged.

I was wondering if I could use a similar defense? as the officer was parked in a small commercial/shopping plaza.

I think there's more to your friends story than you were told, because that's just wrong. Police do NOT need permission to park on private property to conduct traffic enforcement for tickets to be valid. I'm sure the officers on here will agree with this.

Simon Borys wrote:

I'm sure the officers on here will agree with this.

100%. Not at all relevant to the charge, and your friend would not have had the ticket dropped for that reason. You can't be stopped for speeding ON private property under the HTA, but a police officer can setup on private property to catch people on the highway. Think about it, does the fact he observed you from a parking lot versus the road change any of the facts of the offence? Nope.

If a police officer is setup on private property and the owner tells him to leave, he has to comply with the request, but it does not invalidate any enforcement.

Thank you, that makes very good sense.

The other thing is how does the officer know I didnt stop. From my opinion I slowed down to a stop but didnt wait for 3 seconds or more. I continued on after a second.

Can I use this as an argument

rajasam78 wrote:

Thank you, that makes very good sense.

The other thing is how does the officer know I didnt stop. From my opinion I slowed down to a stop but didnt wait for 3 seconds or more. I continued on after a second.

Can I use this as an argument

From what you've posted the officer isn't arguing how long you stopped for, simply that you didn't stop. But you are correct in that there is no set period of time you need to stop for. It can be for one second or one minute, although the latter will probably result in some angry drivers behind you.

rajasam78 wrote:

The officer comments on environment canada's weather forcast about freezing rain. But he also says the roads were clear. Can I use a due diligence defence that I slowed down but could not stop due to the weather condition and just continued through.

As Simon Borys indicated, due diligence is where you take reasonable precautions to prevent the offence. According to what you said earlier, you did NOT adjust your driving for the conditions.

I read the officer's notes. He did not say the roads were clear. He said they were clear and wet, but acknowledged that there was a forecast of freezing rain. Just because the public weather forecast indicates that there is the possibility of freezing rain does not mean that the road will ice over, or even that those conditions were occurring at the time your offence occurred. I did a historical weather check and according to the observed weather at the Kitchener-Waterloo Airport, there was a brief period of freezing rain starting around 6AM that had changed over to rain by 7 AM local time that day, and continued to warm up (ie no more freezing rain). The officer observed your vehicle and did not note any sliding or skidding; he simply said you failed to stop. If you try the weather angle, unless you get a very sympathetic and pro-defendant JP, it will not work.

I have a hard time believing your friend's claim. The Prosecutor would have had to either be poorly trained, and/or just plain mistaken, to drop a ticket for that reason. Police can set up on private property if they wish. The owner can tell them to leave, and typically they will not set up on a residential property without seeking permission first, but either way it doesn't matter. I've seen the "police were on private property" approach tried in court about a half-dozen times and it failed 100% of the time. I would not recommend trying it as a defence if it goes to trial.

As far as stopping goes, the only requirement is for your vehicle to fully stop. There is no requirement to stop for three seconds; this is taught as a technique by some driving schools. The only legal requirement is for the vehicle to fully cease forward motion. If you are absolutely 100% certain that you did, in fact, stop, you can testify to that. If you are not 100% certain, then do not testify. Given the fact that you said you could not stop in earlier posts, I would also not recommend testifying that you stopped, because this would be perjury.

If the officer shows up, I would suggest that you discuss your clean driving record with the Prosecutor, and seek to plea-bargain to a lesser offence. Since you were polite and cooperative with the officer during the traffic stop, I think there is a reasonable possibility that they will reduce the charge.

"I would suggest that you discuss your clean driving record with the Prosecutor, and seek to plea-bargain to a lesser offence. Since you were polite and cooperative with the officer during the traffic stop, I think there is a reasonable possibility that they will reduce the charge"

Can such an offence under this section be reduced ?

I can reduce the number of points deducted. If so how best to present this to the prosecutor. Should I just come out flat and ask lets plea bargain. I have never been in this situation, any advise or help will be appreciated.

I have my trial tomorrow morning

rajasam78 wrote:

I can reduce the number of points deducted. If so how best to present this to the prosecutor.

Points are non-negotiable. They can't be reduced.

First Attendance done.

Plea bargain to a lesser offence of "did not obey sign"

2 points instead of 3

Fine amount decreased

Did I do well ??? or could i have done better ??

Given the circumstances, I think you did fine. You got a reduced fine and lower demerit points. Whether your insurance will be affected or not remains to be seen, but in some cases, they'll forgive one ticket per three-year period for things like:

- Speeding 15 km/h or less over the limit

- Disobey sign (what you pled guilty to)

- Failure to lower high-beams

- Green Light - Fail to Proceed as Directed

Etc.

They usually won't forgive a ticket for Disobey Stop Sign, even if it is your first offence.