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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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Disobey Stop Sign...No new stop sign warning posted
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:05 am 
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I received a ticket for disobeying a stop sign. I don't drive along this street very often and there has been a lot of construction going on in the area along with the building of a new school. I had just left my son's school so I was very diligent in making sure I was obeying the speed limit. When I raised my head from my dashboard I saw out of the corner of my eye a NEW stop sign that was also difficult to see as it was slightly covered in some snow. The stop sign was also held up with sand bags and tilted slightly to the right! To me it seemed like a fairly new stop sign. Unfortunately, I had already passed the sign but I did stop mid-way to look around for traffic and wouldn't you know it a cop was parked right there! I of course was pulled over and ticketed. I mentioned to the cop that this was a new stop sign and had not been there before. He wasn't clear on when the sign was posted "since the construction" but told me I had to get charged for not stopping!

After the incident I took pictures of the area and noticed that the warning for the new stop sign had fallen down, probably from the windy night before and could not be seen from the direction I was driving. It was not posted permanently on a hydro pole or fixed pole but was held up with sand bags. I guess that's why it fell! However, the warning signs facing the opposite way were posted clearly and correctly on a hydro pole.

Does anyone know of any rules regarding the posting of warning "new stop sign ahead" when the sign isn't where it should be? I feel that this was very unfair to me. I am a good driver with a clean driving record and now I may have to face 3 demerit points and a huge fine..is there anyway to argue this point and win?

Please help!!!!! I am so angry about this! :x


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:19 pm 
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I can't find anything that says a "NEW" warning has to be erected for every new sign. Could be just a courtesy, or could be part of some act that I haven't searched yet.

However, you mention that it was tilted to the right. The left edge of the stop sign cannot be more than 4 m away from the edge of the roadway (a shoulder is not part of the roadway, if that street has one). The sign also has to be visible from 60 m away, and between 1.5 m to 15 m away from the intersecting roadway.

Either way, a speedometer check should require no head movement - just a quick glance that takes a fraction of a second. The missed stop sign could just as easily have been a child running across the street.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:34 pm 
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No. I'd bet large that if the stop sign had run across the road, it would have been seen and stopped for, just as a child would have.

Be sure to read the pertinent section of the HTA and see if it helps your case:
136. (1) Every driver or street car operator approaching a stop sign at an intersection,
(a) shall stop his or her vehicle or street car at a marked stop line or, if none, then immediately before entering the nearest crosswalk or, if none, then immediately before entering the intersection; and
(b) shall yield the right of way to traffic in the intersection or approaching the intersection on another highway so closely that to proceed would constitute an immediate hazard and, having so yielded the right of way, may proceed. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 136 (1).



Here's the requirements for sign placement:

Amended to O. Reg. 246/03
SIGNS
6. (1) A stop sign erected before August 1, 1993 shall,
(a) be octagonal in shape, not less than 60 centimetres in height and width and bear the word "stop" in white retro-reflective letters not less than 20 centimetres in height on a background of red retro-reflective material; or
(b) be octagonal in shape, not less than 60 centimetres in height and width and bear the words "stop" and "arrêt" in white retro-reflective letters on a background of red retro-reflective material.
(2) A stop sign erected on or after August 1, 1993 shall be as described in clause (1) (a) and illustrated in the following Figure:



(3) On or after August 1, 2008, no stop sign shall be valid except as described and illustrated in subsection (2). O. Reg. 444/93, s. 2.
7. A stop sign shall be erected on the right side of the highway, facing approaching traffic, at a point not less than 1.5 metres and not more than 15 metres from the intersecting roadway. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 615, s. 7.
8. (1) Where a stop sign is erected within a city, town, village, police village or built-up area, the left edge of the sign shall be not more than 2 metres from the roadway.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:50 pm 
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Bookm what's O. Reg 246/03? Is that just an older version of the current reg?

O. Reg 615 covers stop signs.

safedriver333, it sounds like you have more than enough to dispute this charge. Like Squishy I couldn't find anything requiring a new sign ahead warning. Alberta has documentation (on page 9) here: http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Co ... p_Sign.pdf

Use that to show what prudent sign erection should be like.

So basically, request a trial, request disclosure and specifically ask for information about the stop sign: when was it erected, a copy of the by-law for it's creation, etc.

You will argue that the sign was not placed or maintained according to the regulation. You can quote s. 137 of the HTA: "every sign so erected shall comply with the regulations of the Ministry".

And as suggested above, get out your measuring tape and make sure the sign is not proper and by how much. Make three measurements: visibility from 60m away, height of sign and placement (distance from edge and from intersection).

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:06 pm 
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think the "new" is just a courtesy for immediate residents of that street.

What would be the difference if any of us drove to Thunder Bay and we did not see a stop sign that had been there for 10years?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:59 pm 
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hwybear wrote:
What would be the difference if any of us drove to Thunder Bay and we did not see a stop sign that had been there for 10years?


I'd agree on principle... the question is was this newly posted sign reasonably visible to safedriver333?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:35 am 
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ticketcombat wrote:
Bookm what's O. Reg 246/03? Is that just an older version of the current reg?

O. Reg 615 covers stop signs.


Hmm. Dunno. That's the section I worked with on MY stop sign ticket a few years ago. May be obsolete now.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:34 pm 
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hwybear wrote:
think the "new" is just a courtesy for immediate residents of that street.

What would be the difference if any of us drove to Thunder Bay and we did not see a stop sign that had been there for 10years?


It should be more than a courtesy, it becomes a safety issue.

I remember when the "new" stop sign was put on my connecting street. There are two intersections to drive through before turning on my street. I must have driven through that stretch at least 10,000 times during my daily commute. Then one day BAM there's a new stop sign and I slam on my brakes. A couple of weeks later they put the "NEW" stop sign up to warn people. Must've been a lot of complaints.

Yes everyone should be paying careful attention on the road. But when you drive the same route every day, you prioritize. You're looking for kids, cars and other movement. You don't expect it.

Or put it another way. Have you ever walked into furniture in your house? The only thing moving is you. And your eyes were not closed. You just didn't expect it.

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